Dirty Politics: Nicky Hager's New Book

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#1108343 14-Aug-2014 12:54

sounds like its OK to have 6 years worth of Gmail and Facebook messages hacked, as long as its someone you don't like and you're on the left

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ajobbins

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#1108349 14-Aug-2014 12:58

I haven't made up my mind about this, however the following largely reflects my thoughts on the matter
- Hagar is a well regarded journalist with a proven track record and as far as I can tell, is well known for his fact checking and journalistic integrity.

- He has written books exposing negative things about both sides of politics. This to me diminishes a view of bias. It also pays to remember that EVERYONE has a political bias to some degree, but the sign of a good journalist is that they can disconnect from their own bias and write with integrity based on well researched fact. Hagar, by most accounts, seems to meet the criteria.

- Hagar didn't steal any emails. He was leaked them. Unless something surfaces to prove otherwise, my understanding is that he hasn't done anything wrong by releasing the information as it is in the public interest.

- Those named in the book may also claim that the information they appear to have leaked was also in the public interest. I find this harder to believe, and it seems more likely it was done for political gain, which may well be illegal.

- Slater and Farrar haven't denied the content of the leaked information, indeed they appear to have confirmed it by statements about pressing charges about it being obtained.

- Slater has also heavily defended the access of Labour party information that was unsecured, saying that because it was unsecured, he was entitled to take it and use it. My understanding of the law (which could be wrong) is that that isn't a defence, and that if he knew he wasn't supposed to have the information, taking it anyway could still be an offence.

- The defence from those implicated in this book seem to be almost exclusively personal attacks against Hagar, or the way the information was obtained, rather than attacks against the arguments or the information itself.

And in this thread, there seems to be a fair bit of "I hate anything not right wing, so I don't care how true it is, I can't stand Labour so it doesn't matter". That to me seems like a very naive and willfully ignorant view, and you're basically saying that simply because of their position on the political spectrum, they can do no bad and can do whatever they like - as long as it isn't "left wing". I don't have any allegiance either way (left or right) and have voted both ways in recent years.

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wasabi2k

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#1108360 14-Aug-2014 13:12

IMO:
It's ugly - most people knew this stuff was happening now there is some evidence.

Slater is a scumbag, always has been, always will be. The less attention he gets the better.

I think the content of the book was a massive letdown for a lot of the audience who were expecting SIS/Snowden info.

Will it change how I vote? Nope.

The timing also strikes me as aiming to maximise sales and publicity - not some noble intention to inform the public.

Fred99

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#1108364 14-Aug-2014 13:14

ajobbins:

And in this thread, there seems to be a fair bit of "I hate anything not right wing, so I don't care how true it is, I can't stand Labour so it doesn't matter". That to me seems like a very naive and willfully ignorant view, and you're basically saying that simply because of their position on the political spectrum, they can do no bad and can do whatever they like - as long as it isn't "left wing". I don't have any allegiance either way (left or right) and have voted both ways in recent years.

Yes - it's not just here, but widespread in other forums and news "reader comments".
I hope that's not "proof" that dog-whistle and attack-dog techniques have been an overwhelmingly successful tool in brainwashing the public into not exercising any critical thought processes of their own. I suspect it's true - and sadly (for democracy) - that means we'll just get more of it.

deadlyllama

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#1108369 14-Aug-2014 13:20

wasabi2k: IMO:
It's ugly - most people knew this stuff was happening now there is some evidence.

Slater is a scumbag, always has been, always will be. The less attention he gets the better.

I think the content of the book was a massive letdown for a lot of the audience who were expecting SIS/Snowden info.

Will it change how I vote? Nope.

The timing also strikes me as aiming to maximise sales and publicity - not some noble intention to inform the public.

Political parties' conduct is always an election issue. It makes sense to make the information public before the election rather than immediately after.

And even if this sort of thing happening is not exactly news, proof of it is. It's the difference between harbouring suspicion and having proof that our leaders are being mendacious. I don't want to vote for someone I suspect of being two-faced. I won't vote for some I *know* is being two-faced.

networkn

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#1108372 14-Aug-2014 13:22

deadlyllama:
wasabi2k: IMO:
It's ugly - most people knew this stuff was happening now there is some evidence.

Slater is a scumbag, always has been, always will be. The less attention he gets the better.

I think the content of the book was a massive letdown for a lot of the audience who were expecting SIS/Snowden info.

Will it change how I vote? Nope.

The timing also strikes me as aiming to maximise sales and publicity - not some noble intention to inform the public.

Political parties' conduct is always an election issue. It makes sense to make the information public before the election rather than immediately after.

And even if this sort of thing happening is not exactly news, proof of it is. It's the difference between harbouring suspicion and having proof that our leaders are being mendacious. I don't want to vote for someone I suspect of being two-faced. I won't vote for some I *know* is being two-faced.

If you think both parties aren't doing the same thing, you are dreaming.

ajobbins

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#1108393 14-Aug-2014 13:49

networkn: If you think both parties aren't doing the same thing, you are dreaming.

I'd be surprised if Labour was doing this (or certainly to this extent), because largely they seem to be asleep at the wheel and not doing very much at all.

The other point I will make is that, just because they both might be doing it, doesn't mean it's OK. This is, at best, conduct of moral question, or at worst, illegal. Regardless of who it is doing it, we should hold those who are elected to represent us to a higher standard than this. In my view, this type of conduct isn't acceptable and shouldn't be tolerated by ANY political party.

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NZCrusader

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#1108409 14-Aug-2014 14:10

ajobbins:
networkn: If you think both parties aren't doing the same thing, you are dreaming.

I'd be surprised if Labour was doing this (or certainly to this extent), because largely they seem to be asleep at the wheel and not doing very much at all.

The other point I will make is that, just because they both might be doing it, doesn't mean it's OK. This is, at best, conduct of moral question, or at worst, illegal. Regardless of who it is doing it, we should hold those who are elected to represent us to a higher standard than this. In my view, this type of conduct isn't acceptable and shouldn't be tolerated by ANY political party.

Forgotten so soon?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/696924/Labour-tries-to-dodge-bomb-fallout

I bet Labour does this, if not more.
This is when they are not unveiling expensive policies (handouts) in vote buying efforts.

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NZCrusader

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#1108412 14-Aug-2014 14:15

ajobbins: Obviously this has been widely reported in the media. What is everyones thoughts?

Damaging Revelations? Stuff we always suspected, but now have proof? Nicky Hager is a screaming left-wing conspiracy theorist? Yawn?

Nicky Hager = a guy trying to make a quick buck by throwing a few assumptions into a book.

I mean I guess he has to make a living... but im sure there are more worthwhile things that can do.

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ajobbins

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#1108415 14-Aug-2014 14:20

NZCrusader: Forgotten so soon? http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/696924/Labour-tries-to-dodge-bomb-fallout

I bet Labour does this, if not more.
This is when they are not unveiling expensive policies (handouts) in vote buying efforts.

My comments were more about recent times. In the last term of government in particular, it's been mostly crickets and tumbleweed from Labour.

As I recall, Mike Williams and Michael Cullen were doing some pretty dirty things around the 2008 election (Personally I can't stand Cullen - I find it slimey and manipulative, much like I find Key).

But that doesn't mean it's OK for either of them to do it. A defence to these allegations is not "But...but.....they did it too!"

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ajobbins

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#1108419 14-Aug-2014 14:24

NZCrusader: Nicky Hager = a guy trying to make a quick buck by throwing a few assumptions into a book.

You're making an assumption Nicky is making assumptions. Much of the book is being portrayed as well researched fact - and Nicky has an established reputation for this as an investigative journalist, for which he has received worldwide acclaim.

Again, I will make the point that those implicated largely don't seem to be denying the 'facts' of the book - which gives credibility to them. The assertions (I won't call them assumptions) made in the book will now be tested by the responses from those implicated, and possible legal inquiries into the matter from both sides.

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sdav

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#1108421 14-Aug-2014 14:26

Hagar is a journalist, it's his career and he enjoys it. He saw the opportunity to run with what he was given and he did. That's fine.

It would have been nice for Hagar to expose all political parties communications and make everyone from every political persuasion think collectively about where politics is headed. The reality is he only got information about National and doesn't that suggest some manipulation or involvement from someone else? I think it does.

I think we could look through ALL parties private conversations and see political engineering and manipulation which to me is the real issue. This is so widespread amongst politics - it's also in no way new, just proves that what you put into a computer can be obtained. Maybe other parties are more clandestine?

kiwitrc

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#1108442 14-Aug-2014 14:58

Have a listen to this, Mike Hosking interviewing Nicky Hagar this morning, http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/wellington/listen-on-demand/audio/1592045740-mhb---nicky-hager--dirty-politics

Lias

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#1108453 14-Aug-2014 15:15

ajobbins:
- Slater has also heavily defended the access of Labour party information that was unsecured, saying that because it was unsecured, he was entitled to take it and use it. My understanding of the law (which could be wrong) is that that isn't a defence, and that if he knew he wasn't supposed to have the information, taking it anyway could still be an offence.

I really really hate to agree with him, because he is filth, but to the best of my recollection it wasn't a hack at all. Someone at Labours end had misconfigured things so that anyone could access the information. No "hacking" required, simply going to the website and downloading it. Very much like the rather infamous security misconfiguration of AT&T that was used by Weev. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goatse_Security#AT.26T.2FiPad_email_address_leak

See also http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/national-admits-labour-data-breach-denies-passing-names-whaleoil-ck-95242

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BlackGlove

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#1108458 14-Aug-2014 15:23

Leaked emails (and cables like those exposed through wikileaks) appear to be the only times you ever get an honest glimpse into the world of politicians. I pretty much take everything else to be b/s spun for personal gain. More and more I am shown evidence which confirms this and never shown anything to contradict it.

Edit: I propose a Sodium Pentothal electoral debate.

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