Dirty Politics: Nicky Hager's New Book

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#1108926 15-Aug-2014 11:39

That can't be right, Hagar is the last bastion of righteousness and propriety is he not, I am sure he said he was

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Dingbatt

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#1108941 15-Aug-2014 12:03

Jeez, I wonder where bloggers and investigative journalists/authors would rank in the Readers Digest survey? Above or below politicians, used car salesmen, etc? The only other investigative journalist I can think of is Ian Wishart, and while I don't necessarily agree with everything he writes, at least all of his facts are independently verifiable. In fact some of his reference lists are almost as long as the chapters! In Hagar's case, I guess it (the references) will just be "Stolen Emails" and then "et al " :P
As far as I'm concerned it's all just noise. I'm going to vote completely selfishly and give my tick to whoever will benefit me and mine.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

dafman

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#1108944 15-Aug-2014 12:04

Hager's book was never going influence those on the right of the political spectrum. The thing is, he doesn't need to. If he can just sufficiently dent 'Brand Key' for a small percentage of the undecided middle, it may be enough to turn the election result.

gzt

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#1108947 15-Aug-2014 12:06

Glassboy: David Farrar has now concluded that Hager must have access to material physically stolen or copied from his office
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/08/ive_either_been_hacked_or_spied_on.html

He appears to be talking about market research (polling) scripts. Ie; something that is physically printed and given to many members of his 100+ staff including temporary. On this basis the conclusion of hacked or spied seems well overboard unless there is something more.

Dingbatt

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#1108951 15-Aug-2014 12:09

dafman: Hager's book was never going influence those on the right of the political spectrum. The thing is, he doesn't need to. If he can just sufficiently dent 'Brand Key' for a small percentage of the undecided middle, it may be enough to turn the election result.

I agree, and if there's the slightest hint of Nackwurst in this recipe then it will have the opposite effect.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

tstone

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#1108958 15-Aug-2014 12:17

ajobbins: Interesting this morning that Collins has come out calling many of the allegations 'lies' and John Key has publicly defended both Collins and Ede.

These seem like dangerous positions to take considering that there seems to be pretty indisputable emails as the source of this, which Hagar is now saying he is considering releasing.

To consider anything obtained illegally 'indisputable' is a great leap of faith. What do you know that we don't? This is going to blow up in Hagars face pretty shortly. I'm surprised he hasn't been arrested already. What sort of credibility has he got; 'Someone just dropped a USB stick in my mailbox'. Yeah right. When this was put to him on TV last night, all he could do was laugh nervously. The National Party's defense is very strong when you consider the method these 'indisputable' emails were obtained. Theft and receiving stolen items is a crime in New Zealand. The book should be renamed Dirty Hagar.
Rant over. I'm sick of it now. This book in no way influences how I will vote. It only reinforces that politics is indeed dirty.

Fred99

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#1109002 15-Aug-2014 12:59

tstone:
ajobbins: Interesting this morning that Collins has come out calling many of the allegations 'lies' and John Key has publicly defended both Collins and Ede.

These seem like dangerous positions to take considering that there seems to be pretty indisputable emails as the source of this, which Hagar is now saying he is considering releasing.

To consider anything obtained illegally 'indisputable' is a great leap of faith. What do you know that we don't? This is going to blow up in Hagars face pretty shortly. I'm surprised he hasn't been arrested already. What sort of credibility has he got; 'Someone just dropped a USB stick in my mailbox'. Yeah right. When this was put to him on TV last night, all he could do was laugh nervously. The National Party's defense is very strong when you consider the method these 'indisputable' emails were obtained. Theft and receiving stolen items is a crime in New Zealand. The book should be renamed Dirty Hagar.
Rant over. I'm sick of it now. This book in no way influences how I will vote. It only reinforces that politics is indeed dirty.

Sorry - but I disagree with your rant - especially as one of the primary characters involved in this:

Claims to be a "journalist" and would actually (well - "should" - if he has any ethical standards) defend the right of Hager to not disclose his source.
Has done the same himself.
Acknowledges that the emails are legitimate, by claiming that they were were hacked.

In any case Hager claims not to have done the "hacking" himself, that there are (yet unreleased) "other" documents which support his claims which are held overseas, outside jurisdiction of NZ, and presumably if Hager has played his cards cleverly, then regardless of what happens here in NZ, those documents will reach the public domain.
If that means the NP has to swallow a few dead rats, then that's just what they're going to have to do. If they try to prosecute or take an injunction out to prevent their release, then that just indicates that there is something to hide - regardless of the "facts".

Leaks, whistle-blowing. It's all good IMO. Think of all the fun those on the right (and religious folks) have had over the Len Brown "affair".

jonathan18

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#1109017 15-Aug-2014 13:05

For a good p!ss-take of the responses to this story see Toby Manhire's opinion piece on the Herald's site: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11309070

It's always disappointing to see so many superficial and simplistic reactions to stories such as this. While I'd have expected to hear these at the pub or at my work (which is a Govt agency that has had the Hager blowtorch applied to it in the past), I would have once assumed it wouldn't be the apparent dominant discourse of members of sites like GZ.

Some days I despair for the future of this country...

Fred99

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#1109021 15-Aug-2014 13:16

jonathan18: For a good p!ss-take of the responses to this story see Toby Manhire's opinion piece on the Herald's site: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11309070

It's always disappointing to see so many superficial and simplistic reactions to stories such as this. While I'd have expected to hear these at the pub or at my work (which is a Govt agency that has had the Hager blowtorch applied to it in the past), I would have once assumed it wouldn't be the apparent dominant discourse of members of sites like GZ.

Some days I despair for the future of this country...

Some of the reader comments under that (brilliant) piece of satire lead me to despair as well.

hangon

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#1109026 15-Aug-2014 13:26

Fred99:
I think Hager deserves some credit for attempting to bring to the public's attention, the increasingly dirty nature of political campaigning.
Of course you'll want to think he's a fraud if you're blindly loyal to the party he has in his sights.

I failed to see what's the difference between his attempt, and the title of his book

Using allegedly hacked material, stolen or unverified or taken out of context, to launch an attack to another party a month before election, that probably beats anything he called dirty in his books.

jonathan18

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#1109027 15-Aug-2014 13:26

Fred99: Some of the reader comments under that (brilliant) piece of satire lead me to despair as well.

I hadn't read the comments, but have done so now. Ouch! What do they say about our nation's collective intelligence? I think the cleverness, the satirical nature and indeed purpose of the piece was clearly lost on some of whichever persuasion...

Glassboy

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#1109058 15-Aug-2014 14:17

jonathan18: For a good p!ss-take of the responses to this story see Toby Manhire's opinion piece on the Herald's site: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11309070

I see a piece of writing as dire as Manhire normally is. If it was Stuff I would expect to see the Stuff Nation logo.

sdav

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#1109064 15-Aug-2014 14:24

The problem I have is that Hagar as a journalist has a massive responsibility to the public to ensure he can verify what he is saying. I'm not worried so much about the theft of emails when balanced against public interest - but you have to know what you're talking about in order to get away with that. He risks giving journalism even more of a bad name.

I also think the reason for the secrecy around the book launch is because everyone was expecting Snowdon info. Pretty underwhelming really when you consider some people were thinking we were neck deep in the NSA spying saga... His publicist probably said something like: "We need to maximise publicity 'cause what we have in comparison to the rumours around your book sucks."

I think it would have been nice for him to have exposed the fantasy that is MMP in this country.

Glassboy

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#1109078 15-Aug-2014 14:36

sdav:
I also think the reason for the secrecy around the book launch is because everyone was expecting Snowdon info. Pretty underwhelming really when you consider some people were thinking we were neck deep in the NSA spying saga... His publicist probably said something like: "We need to maximise publicity 'cause what we have in comparison to the rumours around your book sucks."

I have a slightly different take on that. Steven Price (google Media Law Journal) hasn't blogged anything about Dirty Politics beyond that Hager was releasing a book. Price "vetted" at least one of Hager's other books, and is quick to say so (and to attack anyone who doesn't like Hager's work). My assumption is that he also reviewed Dirty Politics. I'm guessing his advice was that if the contents of it were known that an injunction against it's release would be likely.

sdav

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#1109129 15-Aug-2014 15:11

Glassboy:
sdav:
I also think the reason for the secrecy around the book launch is because everyone was expecting Snowdon info. Pretty underwhelming really when you consider some people were thinking we were neck deep in the NSA spying saga... His publicist probably said something like: "We need to maximise publicity 'cause what we have in comparison to the rumours around your book sucks."

I have a slightly different take on that. Steven Price (google Media Law Journal) hasn't blogged anything about Dirty Politics beyond that Hager was releasing a book. Price "vetted" at least one of Hager's other books, and is quick to say so (and to attack anyone who doesn't like Hager's work). My assumption is that he also reviewed Dirty Politics. I'm guessing his advice was that if the contents of it were known that an injunction against it's release would be likely.

I can see that being the case more so. Just being facetious really.

Everyone names was always going to deny. He really should have prepared evidence and response beyond "buy the book". The media were always going to ask for this and looks silly right now not being able to defend it IMO.

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