Moment of Truth?

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#1130016 16-Sep-2014 15:18

Is there any 'proof' beyond some old powerpoint slides without context or details?

You can call me biased all you like, but if the 'proof' are those slides and interpretation of those slides, then you won't convince me.

Asking me to watch the video won't work.

Linking to documents that are acknowledged to be accurate by all parties which prove the assertions is a good start.

Cheers - N

Please note all comments are the product of my own brain and don't necessarily represent the position or opinions of my employer, previous employers, colleagues, friends or pets.

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BarTender

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#1130020 16-Sep-2014 15:22

Glassboy:
BarTender:

I can say it as many times as you want.... but you are choosing to ignore it. I AM NOT A POLITICAL PARTY SHILL FOR ANY PARTY.

I've clipped most of your rant because frankly it doesn't do you any favours. The guts of it is you post anonymously, you post what are currently attack lines of political parties, you ignore salient points that contradict your argument (and therefore a political parties agenda), and when directly challenged you resort to one of two logical fallacies; an appeal to false authority or ad hominem.

If we are to accept that you have the best interests of the country in mind than we can expect to see an open mind and a desire for open dialogue. You don't display either of those things.

In all honesty I can say exactly the same about you. You seem more than happy to attack me personally when I have never done the same to you.

I have said it beggars belief that people such as yourself are comfortable with mass surveillance "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" mentality.

Where is your proof any of it is wrong. Much like dirty politics, none of that has been proven incorrect apart from the part where someone was moved from one prison to another at the request of the MP. Apart from that there hasn't been anything other than confirmations.

The press releases from the PM yesterday were nothing other than a diversionary tactic in my view since they were completely beside the point and focused on the CCIP rather than what the GCSB perform in relation to spying. A number of groups have said that the CCIP should be a separate part of the government not connected directly with the GSCB. I happen to agree that their roles and functions are completely different.

So on the balance of probability I suspect the vast majority in Dirty Politics is correct. Jordon Williams certainly has at least been forthright enough to apologise.

Two interviews on Radio NZ from our leader and Collins before she was kicked make for fascinating listening.
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/20146025/prime-minister-stands-by-minister-and-staff It's a brilliant interview.
and
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/20147627/judith-collins-responds-to-winston-peters-allegation From about 4 Mins 30 in.

And people then go on to say there is nothing to hide nothing to see here move along thanks. If there was nothing to hide then why can't a simple question just get answered. She is still #3 on the list so even if she looses (which is unlikely) she will still be in parliament. It's not like she has actually fallen on her sword, more like taken a pay cut until she gets brought back into the fold to keep the public happy.

To me it just calls into question the whole argument that we can trust John Key as I am with ajobbins here. If I had to believe JK over Snowden.. I would go with Snowden.

and

tehgerbil

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#1130021 16-Sep-2014 15:23

ajobbins:
Technofreak:
I agree, however I am hopeful after last nights circus (that's probably insulting to a proper circus) most people will see through KDC's antics and will vote to ensure he isn't successful. I think last night will have reduced the Internet Mana parties chances of having any representation in parliament.

I am hopeful after last night most people will see through KDC's antics and examine the other claims that were made with proper scrutiny.

KDC aside, there were very serious claims made by well respected, internationally recognised people with a proven track record of being right (And, probably more importantly, a track record of not being wrong).

It's just a shame that KDC himself has detracted from these revelations. While KDC clearly has his own motives and agenda, that does not mean that any revelations that he has managed to produce are automatically invalid, as many people seem to be asserting. Take him out of the equation and think critically rather than writing all this (Same with Dirty Politics) off on technicalities.

A few issues.
1- Timing.
2- Complete lack of proof
3- Hidden agenda
4.- wgaf
5- Coroporations know more about you than any government could dream of.

1- Timing, obviously if this was actually for the good of the people, this would have been brought to light either further than a week before an election, or at least soon after the other revelations came to light, and after wikileaks had done a spill. KDC's leeriness aside, he's smart enough to realise bringing it up this close to an election will do little to sway the majority of people, and I (as most intelligent people) fear it will be dismissed as the majority of NZ public as a mud slinging.

2- Seriously, an email? Not even actually- a copy of an email. With all the other information Wikileaks holds you really would have thought there would be diplomatic emails etc outlining specific cases of the spying. The lack of proof is not proof enough, not to convict a man in any reasonable court of law, why is the lack of proof enough to convict our prime minister or lying in a public forum?

3- As we know KDC got rich and continues to do so from piracy. Let's be frank here, most people use digital lockers to share pirate movies and TV episodes. Of course he has no desire to be shipped to a country well and truely held under corporations control under which he will be stipped of all his finances, and most likely sent to prison. Anything this man says has a hidden agenda, everything he does is for his own end game. That end game does not involve good things for New Zealanders in general. Just because someone is a traitor to their country, and releases confidential documents doesn't make them a saint and not able to be paid off. (Yes, I know many people will dispute this, but bear in Kim got his money back in 2014. He is stupendously rich and the afore mentioned people need money for costly protection and potential court costs. Where does this money come from? Well everyone has their price.

4- How god damn dare he. Seriously, our country is riddled with underpaid, overworked public, with the rich gap dividing by the day, the poor are so very worse off now than ever, and our children are suffering. This is what should matter this election. Jobs. People. Not rich Germans with millions of dollars and zero interest in either jobs or people runing a political side show for his own agenda.
Honestly Who gives a fudge? We really have bigger, more important things to worry about than who's spying on us.

5- So your data is caught up amongst a world wide search for a terrorist. Seriously? Are they spying on you in the showers? No? Are you financially impacted by them? No? Does Paknsave spy on your cellphone to know what isles you go down the most? Yes. Does google know where you're going to be a week from now based on your previous location information? Yes. Does Facebook know you're still in love with an old flame? Yes. Does Facebook know you're trying for another child after suffering an abortion 2 years ago? Yes. WHY DON'T PEOPLE CARE ABOUT THIS INSTEAD?!?

TL:DR version
KDC is an an a$$hole with his own end game, and it's not good for NZ.

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#1130022 16-Sep-2014 15:23

ajobbins:
KiwiNZ:
ajobbins:
KiwiNZ: It would seem that if Snowden in co say it is, then it is, after all they have spotless credentials.

Not so. But as I said in the previous post, it's just guys 'word' against each other....and John Key is the less reliable of the two.

Doesn't make the allegations correct, but it doesn't make them incorrect either.

Oh Ok , hmmmm

Cool story bro

Did you really think there would be more in response to your comment? Not worth my effort, I guess for New Zealand issues I give more weight to a long serving NZ leader than I would give to a group of non New Zealanders with criminal and or dubious backgrounds.

Oh and the "cool story bro" response was old about 4 years ago.:P

shk292

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#1130031 16-Sep-2014 15:42

ajobbins:
KiwiNZ: It would seem that if Snowden in co say it is, then it is, after all they have spotless credentials.

Not so. But as I said in the previous post, it's just guys 'word' against each other....and John Key is the less reliable of the two.

Doesn't make the allegations correct, but it doesn't make them incorrect either.

So, you place more credence in the words of a man who has a proven track record of betraying his country, breaching a legal contract he has signed and releasing highly classified information which puts at further risk the lives of people who risk their lives serving their country, than you do in the most effective and popular PM this country has had in several decades. And in doing so you'd like said PM to be replaced with a man who has around 10% popular support, has demonstrably lied on his CV and who talks out of different sides of his mouth according to which audience he's trying to impress. Oh, and who is totally in the financial pockets of trade unions and other anonymous backers. Well, I'm glad your view only represents a small proportion of NZ

ajobbins

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#1130047 16-Sep-2014 16:12

shk292:
So, you place more credence in the words of a man who has a proven track record of betraying his country, breaching a legal contract he has signed and releasing highly classified information which puts at further risk the lives of people who risk their lives serving their country

Irrelevant to the facts of what he has released. Despite all of the above (much of which is conjecture anyway), what he has released has turned out to be reliable. If he did betray his country, broke a legal contract etc, this doesn't make what he has released to date, which has proven to be true, any less true. He has proven his credibility when it comes to the release of information.

than you do in the most effective and popular PM this country has had in several decades.

Key's popularity is not being tested here, his credibility and reliability is - and on balance, he has less (in my opinion) than the others. He has shown time and time again he is forgetful (perhaps on purpose) and either has a poor grasp of the goings on in his government or is lying about it.

Your entire argument around Key being more 'reliable' than Snowden et al is based around factors that are totally and utterly irrelevant to the reliability of information they have released.

And in doing so you'd like said PM to be replaced with a man who has around 10% popular support, has demonstrably lied on his CV and who talks out of different sides of his mouth according to which audience he's trying to impress. Oh, and who is totally in the financial pockets of trade unions and other anonymous backers. Well, I'm glad your view only represents a small proportion of NZ

I could frame JK in a way that makes him sound just has bad, but I won't because frankly it adds nothing to the discussion. I don't think much of the leader of the Labour party (who I assume you are referring to) and I am not making a case for a Labour led government here.

Just because an alternative isn't perfect either isn't an argument against change or holding our leaders to account.

Twitter: ajobbins

tehgerbil

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#1130057 16-Sep-2014 16:38

ajobbins: Your entire argument around Key being more 'reliable' than Snowden et al is based around factors that are totally and utterly irrelevant to the reliability of information they have released

Actually, I see your point for a few arguments in this thread, but have to strongly disagree with this one- Put yourselves in the shoes of a policeman- You have 2 sources of conflicting statements, logically in the absence of proof it comes down to the trustworthiness of the speaker of the conflicting statements.

In this scenario whoever is more reliable comes into play, as well as personal thoughts for either person.
If you know someone to be reliable, but a thief, and someone to be unreliable but a squeaky clean record, that's your gut decision to make.

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#1130098 16-Sep-2014 17:20

tehgerbil:
ajobbins: Your entire argument around Key being more 'reliable' than Snowden et al is based around factors that are totally and utterly irrelevant to the reliability of information they have released

Actually, I see your point for a few arguments in this thread, but have to strongly disagree with this one- Put yourselves in the shoes of a policeman- You have 2 sources of conflicting statements, logically in the absence of proof it comes down to the trustworthiness of the speaker of the conflicting statements.

In this scenario whoever is more reliable comes into play, as well as personal thoughts for either person.
If you know someone to be reliable, but a thief, and someone to be unreliable but a squeaky clean record, that's your gut decision to make.

You should probably take the serious amount of media spin both sides have had in regards to those statements.

And I still backup ajobbins here. I would go with Snowden in regards to the truth. More than happy to be wrong here, but the odds just don't stack up.

Highly recommend everyone listen to the two Radio NZ links I provided above as I think they show the true nature of our PM and their senior ministers in their own words not anyone elses.

and

Geektastic

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#1130104 16-Sep-2014 17:32

Zippity: You are floundering.

Just like the fat Kraut (Whale) is doing

Do you think Iwi can claim his jawbone when he is washed up on the beach?!

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#1130137 16-Sep-2014 18:06

KrazyKid

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#1130192 16-Sep-2014 19:38

For those who want an interesting theory on how the Southern Cross Cable was tapped.
Lots of smoke about this issue if you ignore the Kim Dotcom sideshow.
Nothing conclusive but I'd love to see proper enquiry.

MikeB4

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#1130195 16-Sep-2014 19:43

KrazyKid: For those who want an interesting theory on how the Southern Cross Cable was tapped.
Lots of smoke about this issue if you ignore the Kim Dotcom sideshow.
Nothing conclusive but I'd love to see proper enquiry.

Waste of time and money, the conspiracy lovers will ignore the result if didn't fit what they believe and most of the population have more important issues to worry about.

jtbthatsme

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#1130196 16-Sep-2014 19:46

So what amazes me after reading a few pages of this is that everyone who supports John Key seems to fixate themselves on Kim Dot Com and his ulterior motives. Can someone here tell me the relevance of KDC in what would seem like some pretty damning statements about John Key and the GCSB's honesty and roles in spying on NZer's for the benefit of another country.

I don't necessarily like KDC or John Key either but one is the Prime Minister and the number 1 civil servant of all NZ and one is not. If you're happy with JK lying about spying and allowing the USA to dictate our laws then continue to party vote National because it's ok to have our countries leader be dishonest about how he conducts NZ's business on our behalf.

For me I would like to think if we voted in a new parliament that we'd at least have a little more accountability because John Key, his denials, his brain fades and his outright lying really is not the sort of person I want in charge.

jeffnz

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#1130198 16-Sep-2014 19:49

jtbthatsme:

For me I would like to think if we voted in a new parliament that we'd at least have a little more accountability because John Key, his denials, his brain fades and his outright lying really is not the sort of person I want in charge.

you think that will change, I find that rather amazing that any politicians tell the truth or you will get better accountability with any other party.

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MikeB4

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#1130199 16-Sep-2014 19:52

The truth I am interested in, nothing from Dotcom has come close to the truth.

I ride no ones wagon, I ride my own.

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