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  #1130387 17-Sep-2014 06:53
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And Utiki raises an Army captures Wellington and seizes power. This thread has reached it's inevitable nadir....... Tat ta




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  #1130388 17-Sep-2014 06:54
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I am suggesting that the post post modern society we live in is more complex than you think




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  #1130398 17-Sep-2014 07:46
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joker97: Just a rhetorical.

Let's say there is spying.

Let's say Winston Peters goes in power. Or any other politician you want to name, say hone.

You think they gonna say hmm, this spying started with Helen, let's abolish it and let the nz public and whole world know, for example China, that we longer spy. To do that we announce to the world we break alliance with Australia, Britain and the US politically and economically. Yay let's start cutting tax and borrow another half billion here, and chase away the Hollywood people and close the country to it's own citizens only.


You completely didn't read my post and divert the argument to completely irrelevant points. Lets not forgot that National within the first year of being in office before the GFC brought in the tax switch that left a 1 billion dollar hole in the budget. This was after the previous Labour and National before them had managed to bring the national debt to it's lowest levels in years. Or that the motion picture business only bring in transitory jobs and receives hefty tax cuts for doing it (that even Act want to abolish). No... lets try and stay on topic shall we?

I have and have never had an issue with the GCSB. I think their function is vital for a secure and well running democracy.

Tangimoana has been open since 1982, and Waihopai since 1989. If previous governments had wanted to close it and exit 5 eyes it would have already happened. I don't want it to happen and never said I did. 

What I have said many times and you choose to just ignore it is:

What I object to is spying under the guise of "terrorism" when what is going on is anything but investigation of terrorism is wrong. Gathering metadata on all our citizens either by GCSB or partners in 5 eyes and doing so without a legal LI warrant issued is unacceptable.

You disagree that the primary focus isn't terrorism and say terrorism is their primary focus and that the ends justifies the means.

So lets just agree to disagree on this one and stop with the personal attacks eh?




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  #1130405 17-Sep-2014 08:12
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BarTender:
joker97: Just a rhetorical.

Let's say there is spying.

Let's say Winston Peters goes in power. Or any other politician you want to name, say hone.

You think they gonna say hmm, this spying started with Helen, let's abolish it and let the nz public and whole world know, for example China, that we longer spy. To do that we announce to the world we break alliance with Australia, Britain and the US politically and economically. Yay let's start cutting tax and borrow another half billion here, and chase away the Hollywood people and close the country to it's own citizens only.


You completely didn't read my post and divert the argument to completely irrelevant points. Lets not forgot that National within the first year of being in office before the GFC brought in the tax switch that left a 1 billion dollar hole in the budget. This was after the previous Labour and National before them had managed to bring the national debt to it's lowest levels in years. Or that the motion picture business only bring in transitory jobs and receives hefty tax cuts for doing it (that even Act want to abolish). No... lets try and stay on topic shall we?

I have and have never had an issue with the GCSB. I think their function is vital for a secure and well running democracy.

Tangimoana has been open since 1982, and Waihopai since 1989. If previous governments had wanted to close it and exit 5 eyes it would have already happened. I don't want it to happen and never said I did. 

What I have said many times and you choose to just ignore it is:

What I object to is spying under the guise of "terrorism" when what is going on is anything but investigation of terrorism is wrong. Gathering metadata on all our citizens either by GCSB or partners in 5 eyes and doing so without a legal LI warrant issued is unacceptable.

You disagree that the primary focus isn't terrorism and say terrorism is their primary focus and that the ends justifies the means.

So lets just agree to disagree on this one and stop with the personal attacks eh?



personal attacks??? did I miss something here as I don't see anything that remotely looks like an attack on you personally.

yes a good idea to agree to disagree, nothing is being achieved at this point (go figure) and those that have a strong opinion, one way or other, aren't going to change it so now it just gets narky.

edit: grammar




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  #1130408 17-Sep-2014 08:18
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I think the core questions are:
1. Is the state *entitled* to know everything about you? Or, conversely, are you entitled to keep secrets from the state?
2. Are you entitled to share those secrets with others? (i.e. freedom of speech)
3. Are we prepared to give up the above rights for some reason (fight terror, drugs, national security, national good, whatever)?
4. Is the state allowed to usurp those rights, without consultation?

And for those who agree with 3... Benjamin Franklin said: Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

By spying on NZers, or even planning or attempting to do so without a mandate, the GCSB and John Key *have* usurped our rights. By changing the law to allow it, without a clear mandate, John Key, the National Govt, and all those who knowingly voted in favour of it continued to do that. And the Opposition parties, in not recognising or exposing the truth, are either complicit or inept. On this issue, the whole Parliamentary process has failed us.


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  #1130461 17-Sep-2014 09:40
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frankv: I think the core questions are:
1. Is the state *entitled* to know everything about you? Or, conversely, are you entitled to keep secrets from the state?
2. Are you entitled to share those secrets with others? (i.e. freedom of speech)
3. Are we prepared to give up the above rights for some reason (fight terror, drugs, national security, national good, whatever)?
4. Is the state allowed to usurp those rights, without consultation?



1. No
2. Yes
3. It's complicated - to Putin, KJUn, KDC, Winston P, NO. to Churchill during WW2, yes.
4. No




Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


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  #1130494 17-Sep-2014 10:30
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frankv: I think the core questions are:
1. Is the state *entitled* to know everything about you? Or, conversely, are you entitled to keep secrets from the state?
2. Are you entitled to share those secrets with others? (i.e. freedom of speech)
3. Are we prepared to give up the above rights for some reason (fight terror, drugs, national security, national good, whatever)?
4. Is the state allowed to usurp those rights, without consultation?

And for those who agree with 3... Benjamin Franklin said: Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

By spying on NZers, or even planning or attempting to do so without a mandate, the GCSB and John Key *have* usurped our rights. By changing the law to allow it, without a clear mandate, John Key, the National Govt, and all those who knowingly voted in favour of it continued to do that. And the Opposition parties, in not recognising or exposing the truth, are either complicit or inept. On this issue, the whole Parliamentary process has failed us.



"Is the state allowed to usurp rights without consultation?"

To believe that the answer to this is no is to live in a fairy tale land - which many seem to do here, assumedly because genuine terrorist atrocities have never happened in NZ (ignore Rainbow Warrior, which many around the world applauded)

The state is the law. The state can - and will - do whatever it pleases regardless of statute if it deems it necessary. Why do you think, for example, the US has black budgets and black programs? In some instances it is for legitimate secrecy. In others it is because they are operating outside the law but consider that they need to do so.

If you believe otherwise, you do not know what 'power' actually means in the political sense.

Generally NZ has avoided such clandestine government activity and significant threat due to remote location etc. I sincerely doubt that will remain the case ad infinitum. The oddity is that the more attention and scrutiny you place the security services under, the more likely they are to act without the law because it becomes too hard to do it within the law.





 
 
 
 


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  #1130504 17-Sep-2014 10:51
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Geektastic: 
"Is the state allowed to usurp rights without consultation?"

To believe that the answer to this is no is to live in a fairy tale land


Are they ALLOWED to usurp rights without consultation? NO

Do they do it anyway? Apparently

Should we, the people, accept that and allow them to erode rights for their own gain? Hell no. Those who abuse their power need to be voted out




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  #1130518 17-Sep-2014 11:07

Geektastic:

"Is the state allowed to usurp rights without consultation?"

To believe that the answer to this is no is to live in a fairy tale land - which many seem to do here, assumedly because genuine terrorist atrocities have never happened in NZ (ignore Rainbow Warrior, which many around the world applauded)

The state is the law. The state can - and will - do whatever it pleases regardless of statute if it deems it necessary. Why do you think, for example, the US has black budgets and black programs? In some instances it is for legitimate secrecy. In others it is because they are operating outside the law but consider that they need to do so.

If you believe otherwise, you do not know what 'power' actually means in the political sense.

Generally NZ has avoided such clandestine government activity and significant threat due to remote location etc. I sincerely doubt that will remain the case ad infinitum. The oddity is that the more attention and scrutiny you place the security services under, the more likely they are to act without the law because it becomes too hard to do it within the law.


There are no reasons to reduce peoples rights without consultation. None.

And I dont live in a fairy land. I just happen to enjoy the freedoms I have and rather not give them up for some secret reasons.

The least the government can do is ask the people if they would be willing to do so. I am not, I have seen the other side. Feel free to ask me how it was, I can tell you some nice stories what it means if a government has access to all the information about its people.

I said it before and will say it again, I would rather live with the very low risk of a potential terror attack if that means that democratic values will remain.






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  #1130590 17-Sep-2014 12:18
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testha:
Geektastic:

"Is the state allowed to usurp rights without consultation?"

To believe that the answer to this is no is to live in a fairy tale land - which many seem to do here, assumedly because genuine terrorist atrocities have never happened in NZ (ignore Rainbow Warrior, which many around the world applauded)

The state is the law. The state can - and will - do whatever it pleases regardless of statute if it deems it necessary. Why do you think, for example, the US has black budgets and black programs? In some instances it is for legitimate secrecy. In others it is because they are operating outside the law but consider that they need to do so.

If you believe otherwise, you do not know what 'power' actually means in the political sense.

Generally NZ has avoided such clandestine government activity and significant threat due to remote location etc. I sincerely doubt that will remain the case ad infinitum. The oddity is that the more attention and scrutiny you place the security services under, the more likely they are to act without the law because it becomes too hard to do it within the law.


There are no reasons to reduce peoples rights without consultation. None.

And I dont live in a fairy land. I just happen to enjoy the freedoms I have and rather not give them up for some secret reasons.

The least the government can do is ask the people if they would be willing to do so. I am not, I have seen the other side. Feel free to ask me how it was, I can tell you some nice stories what it means if a government has access to all the information about its people.

I said it before and will say it again, I would rather live with the very low risk of a potential terror attack if that means that democratic values will remain.







Easy to say when you haven't been exposed to one or lost family or friends in one. I think the 9/11 families feel somewhat differently.

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  #1130591 17-Sep-2014 12:19
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i am curious as to why if NZ govt spies on us that they didn't see the Moment of Truth coming?




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  #1130607 17-Sep-2014 12:41
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joker97: i am curious as to why if NZ govt spies on us that they didn't see the Moment of Truth coming?


Because the revelations (for want of a better word) came from the NSA via Snowden??? And (unless they're *really* stupid) KDC and his henchmen are cautious about how they communicate with each other.

And presumably, when John Key politely asked the NSA what information they had stored on him, they didn't tell him everything.

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  #1130634 17-Sep-2014 13:02
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Bruce Ferguson has admitted GSCB staff were trained in XKeyScore

"Earlier today, Key dismissed Snowden's assertions that the NSA is operating in New Zealand. But he refused to discuss XKeyscore. However, former director of the GCSB Bruce Ferguson today admitted agents were trained in the data-harvesting technology."

Source: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10504916/NZ-spied-on-Pacific-neighbours-Greenwald


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  #1130641 17-Sep-2014 13:09
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"Prime Minister John Key acknowledged today that NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden's claim that New Zealanders' data is accessible through the controversial XKeyscore system "may well be right"."

Source




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  #1130644 17-Sep-2014 13:12
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Geektastic:

To believe that the answer to this is no is to live in a fairy tale land - which many seem to do here, assumedly because genuine terrorist atrocities have never happened in NZ (ignore Rainbow Warrior, which many around the world applauded)



So you are OK with State sponsored terrorism in New Zealand that kills an innocent person, if it is group you just don't like?

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