Moment of Truth?

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Mad Scientist
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#1131488 18-Sep-2014 14:57

gzt:
networkn: If you are worried about the data collection, consider this could be your mother, or sister affected by this:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11326909

Saved I am presuming, by monitoring communications.

Far more likely by a combination of traditional border monitoring customs work, police work, concerned informants close to the group, and communications warrants. This type of focused work is very different to mass surveillance of everything - which is easily abused.

How far is Auckland and Christchurch from Sydney?

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MikeB4

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#1131503 18-Sep-2014 15:04

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/61327386/beheading-plot-foiled-in-new-south-wales.html

Think about it

geekiegeek

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#1131508 18-Sep-2014 15:09

KiwiNZ: http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/61327386/beheading-plot-foiled-in-new-south-wales.html

Think about it

I actually popped into this thread just to see if this had been mentioned yet. Provides a real world view of why GCSB/SIS et al are needed.

Also for those that say all surveillance should be targeted only, how does that help you if the people haven't come to the authorities notice yet?

Geektastic

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#1131522 18-Sep-2014 15:22

Glassboy:
hangon:

There are also 25 red dots at the bottom of map. does NSA have servers underwater surrounding antarctic?

haha no of course not. Next thing you'll be saying NIWAs fancy new boats aren't for research and are actually for servicing our underwater spy stations, which are all part of a conspiracy of Cthulu worshipping civil servants.

Blast! The secret is out! The Old Ones will be visiting you soon....

networkn

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#1131530 18-Sep-2014 15:32

geekiegeek:
KiwiNZ: http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/61327386/beheading-plot-foiled-in-new-south-wales.html

Think about it

I actually popped into this thread just to see if this had been mentioned yet. Provides a real world view of why GCSB/SIS et al are needed.

Also for those that say all surveillance should be targeted only, how does that help you if the people haven't come to the authorities notice yet?

Exactly. I never understand why people are worried about data collection. What do these people think is the reason behind the data collection? So they can determine what everyones particular flavour of porn is? Perhaps they are hoping to see Nekkid pictures of celebrities?

Or could it be there are no dark motives and it's part of keeping people safe.. Surely not!

gzt

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#1131552 18-Sep-2014 16:04

networkn: Exactly. I never understand why people are worried about data collection. What do these people think is the reason behind the data collection? So they can determine what everyones particular flavour of porn is?

One of the ethical motivations Snowden has spoken of is using information obtained from mass surveillance to blackmail innocent people in target countries into assisting with espionage tasks. This might be knowledge of affairs, things like that. Unlikely to be applied in NZ, granted.

Another problem is simply lack of control over the data itself once collected. Only recently have even NZ government departments implemented even minimal auditing. Anecdotally and as a result of prosecutions we know that misuse of even relatively innocuous data like police, ird, winz, etc for purely personal reasons and/or financial gain were and probably are still common.

Lastly it just enables all kinds of warrantless search which tends to be very bad for democracy in the long run.

Geektastic

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#1131569 18-Sep-2014 16:26

And now I read that this Greenwold fellow's meddling may scupper our 7 year campaign for a seat on the UN security council....

gzt

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#1131570 18-Sep-2014 16:27

networkn: Or could it be there are no dark motives and it's part of keeping people safe.. Surely not!

It depends what you consider dark motives. It is well known and documented that intelligence agencies seek total information dominance and are working towards it. They do not hide this aim. Then you must ask what that information will be used and is used for.

Is it really all 'keeping people safe'? No it is not.

It is also about states getting what they want in trade negotiations, states keeping tabs on major business competitors in strategic industries, the list goes on and on.

There have been international treaties agreed which define clearly where nuclear weapons are to be placed and what types are permitted. These worked very well for a long period of time. It will not be too long before citizens and therefore states (like Germany) demand similar in relation to the information dominance activities. Until then anyone competing with a major US corporation on equal terms should take care with their communications.

Technofreak

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#1131576 18-Sep-2014 16:36

Geektastic: And now I read that this Greenwold fellow's meddling may scupper our 7 year campaign for a seat on the UN security council....

He's only interested in one thing, - Raising his profile.

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gzt

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#1131583 18-Sep-2014 16:47

Geektastic: And now I read that this Greenwold fellow's meddling may scupper our 7 year campaign for a seat on the UN security council....

To put it more accurately - if it is revealed that Snowden documents show NZ or high level NZ involvement in interception of communications from our south pacific friends and neighbors then they might not vote for NZ when the security council election comes around unless NZ does some hard work on the relationship. In the German case (linked earlier) it was the interception of Merkel's personal cell phone conversations which really got her goat.

Technofreak

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#1131585 18-Sep-2014 16:49

An interesting blog here about the person responsible for the "Moment of Truth".

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/09/3rd_degree_on_kim_dotcom_and_his_staff.html

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frankv

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#1131602 18-Sep-2014 17:10

KiwiNZ: If this Moment of rumour, innuendo and lies actually succeeds in derailing this election I wonder what the threads will be like on this Forum when people wake up and realise our country has been wrecked and KDC et al have moved on to fulfil their narcissism

The *ultimate* control in our democracy is that we can throw an evil-doer out after 3 years.

If this election is "derailed" to do that, then that *is* the democratic process, and by definition it is the right thing to do.

FUD is the last resort of someone who doesn't actually have a coherent argument... they said the same thing about the nuclear free issue, sending troops to Vietnam, buying American cars, buying Japanese cars, using DDT, not using DDT, giving women the vote, yadda yadda ...

Whilst I have no admiration for KDC, I think it's great that he has woken up the people to realise that their rights are being eroded, and in some cases, stolen. It's a pity that the people who we pay handsomely to safeguard us from the abuses of power (i.e. the Opposition parties) have been so totally inept.

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#1131607 18-Sep-2014 17:18

frankv:
KiwiNZ: If this Moment of rumour, innuendo and lies actually succeeds in derailing this election I wonder what the threads will be like on this Forum when people wake up and realise our country has been wrecked and KDC et al have moved on to fulfil their narcissism

The *ultimate* control in our democracy is that we can throw an evil-doer out after 3 years.

If this election is "derailed" to do that, then that *is* the democratic process, and by definition it is the right thing to do.

FUD is the last resort of someone who doesn't actually have a coherent argument... they said the same thing about the nuclear free issue, sending troops to Vietnam, buying American cars, buying Japanese cars, using DDT, not using DDT, giving women the vote, yadda yadda ...

Whilst I have no admiration for KDC, I think it's great that he has woken up the people to realise that their rights are being eroded, and in some cases, stolen. It's a pity that the people who we pay handsomely to safeguard us from the abuses of power (i.e. the Opposition parties) have been so totally inept.

Did Sydney wake you up?

Yabanize

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#1131755 18-Sep-2014 19:59

Check this out. https://imgur.com/a/4C8zX

BarTender

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#1131767 18-Sep-2014 20:08

Yabanize: Check this out. https://imgur.com/a/4C8zX

Already posted it back on Page 20.. Compelling stuff.

I would love to see one comment from Greenwald or Snowden where they explicitly say they have an issue with activities of the NSA & GCBS while under a legal warrent to intercept traffic from a terrorist. Sadly many on this thread want to bring it back to terrorism yet Greenwald or Snowden specifically talk about it not being about terrorism. I wonder why they keep on doing that? Perhaps because they don't have any argument if terrorism isn't used as the excuse?

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