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neb

neb
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  #2552022 29-Aug-2020 18:33
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kingdragonfly: New York Times: An American Disaster Foretold. Europeans look at “containment” as the means to deal with Trump.

 

 

The specific term in European politics is "cordon sanitaire"... link to a (somewhat academic) discussion for people who want to read more. It's a reasonably familiar concept there.

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  #2552025 29-Aug-2020 18:41
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neb:
freitasm: Trump at some point claimed Democrats wanted a law allowing abortion up to the nineth month...
The "full-term abortions" nonsense is a long-term tenet of anti-abortion radicals in the US. It's very effective because while everyone's distracted debating a nonexistent piece of fiction it derails any chance to have a serious debate about actual abortion issues. It's been used in NZ as well by anti-abortion radicals taking lessons from the US.

 

It's also deeply offensive and deliberate callous cruelty to any woman who due to medical reasons, has in the past or would in the present or future be denied the choice of not carrying a dead or dying baby with no chance of survival after birth in her womb to "full term", at grave risk to her own life (or certain death).  It's also predominantly men who seem to be pushing this BS, evil conservative godless men waving the bible - who treat women as chattels. 


neb

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  #2552029 29-Aug-2020 18:57
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Fred99:

Who on earth suggested "secret messages to his followers"?  Not me.  "Trolling liberals" - for sure. 

 

 

I was pointing out that it's possible to over-interpret almost anything, as any kid who's had to study Shakespeare at school will be aware of. The Trump secret messages stuff was a reference to QAnon, which is this sort of thing taken to extremes.

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  #2552037 29-Aug-2020 19:11
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neb:
Fred99:

 

Who on earth suggested "secret messages to his followers"?  Not me.  "Trolling liberals" - for sure. 

 

I was pointing out that it's possible to over-interpret almost anything, as any kid who's had to study Shakespeare at school will be aware of. The Trump secret messages stuff was a reference to QAnon, which is this sort of thing taken to extremes.

 

It's also possible to believe - as despite the fact it's patently obvious to any sane person that Trump is a moron - that "Trump level strategy" determines how the campaign is run.  Don't underestimate what's behind "Trumpism".  (Edit - it absolutely is fascism)


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  #2552047 29-Aug-2020 20:01
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freitasm: Trump at some point claimed Democrats wanted a law allowing abortion up to the nineth month...


He literally said this again in his acceptance speech, last night

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  #2552048 29-Aug-2020 20:06
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Rikkitic:

Trump's plan for the next four years:


"But so I think, I think it would be, I think it would be very, very, I think we'd have a very, very solid, we would continue what we're doing, we'd solidify what we've done, and we have other things on our plate that we want to get done," Trump told The New York Times' Peter Baker.


- CNN


 



Cut off the bit, right before, we he talked about what he’s done and what he’s going to do:
“increasing military spending, cutting taxes, eliminating regulations, reinforcing the border and appointing conservative judges”

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  #2552057 29-Aug-2020 20:16
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He couldn't achieve that in the first 4 years (apart from the judges one), so what's to say he would be able to do it with another 4?


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  #2552063 29-Aug-2020 20:45
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Politicians lie, both sides lie. Such is the escalating hyper-partisan political environment here

I think you’d be very hard pressed to say Trump hasn’t also increased military spending, cut taxes, eliminated regulations, and reinforced the border. All those things seem to be true to me.

Standard boiler rate Republican stuff

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  #2552162 29-Aug-2020 22:24
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nathan: Politicians lie, both sides lie. Such is the escalating hyper-partisan political environment here

I think you’d be very hard pressed to say Trump hasn’t also increased military spending, cut taxes, eliminated regulations, and reinforced the border. All those things seem to be true to me.

Standard boiler rate Republican stuff

 

Absolutely agree.  All of which are destroying American society, are a threat to the planet, and aren't going to "Make America Great", or the world a better place.

 

But OTOH,  as Democrats oppose Trump's fascist hyper-nationalism, then saying "both sides lie" suggests that nothing will change if Trump is ousted.  

 

Trump is orders of magnitude the biggest liar of any US president.  Prove me wrong.


neb

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  #2552173 29-Aug-2020 22:50
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Fred99:

Trump is orders of magnitude the biggest liar of any US president.

 

 

And that's the thing with a genuine pathological liar, many politicians bend the truth for political purposes but at least try and stay within the bounds of plausibility, but Trump is one of the few I'm aware of who simply manufactures his own reality. When normal people tell a lie they try and make it defensible, create something that will stand a chance of holding up to scrutiny, and this places a natural limit on how far you can go in terms of lying. Pathological liars on the other hand don't care about the consequences of their lying, they'll say anything even if it's easily proven wrong as long as it furthers their ends. This isn't playing by the social contract for lying, and is very hard to deal with for most people.

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  #2552188 30-Aug-2020 00:03
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nathan: Politicians lie, both sides lie. Such is the escalating hyper-partisan political environment here

 

... I think you’d be very hard pressed to say Trump hasn’t also increased military spending

 

... cut taxes

 

... eliminated regulations

 

... and reinforced the border.

 

Lies:
President Trump has lied more than 20,000 times during his Presidency. Which other President can beat that record?

 

Defence: 
Obamas score card on military spending and defence is better than Trumps.

 

Tax cuts:
For the richest, for sure. A lot of people ended up with more taxes in 2019.

 

Eliminated regulations:
Not sure how this is a good thing?

 

Reinforced the border:
Not really.

 

All those things seem to be true to me.

 

Standard boiler rate Republican stuff

 

To me they seem like half lies/lies and just plain theatre.

 

And nope, Trump is not standard Republican stuff. That is why you have organisations like Republicans Voters Against Trump and the Republican The Lincoln Project using large amounts of money to get a Democrat elected in 2020. And it is also why no other Republican president has supported Trump for President in 2020.





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  #2552232 30-Aug-2020 08:33
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I wonder if Bush would endorse Biden? I know he's not a fan of Trump.

 

Did they have much to do with each other when Bush was president?


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  #2552244 30-Aug-2020 09:37
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The Washington Post - Fact-checking Trump’s lies is essential. It’s also increasingly fruitless.

 

today

 


Daniel Dale met President Trump’s convention speech with a tirade of truth Thursday night - a tour de force of fact-checking that left CNN anchor Anderson Cooper looking slightly stunned.

 

The cable network’s resident fact-checker motored through at least 21 falsehoods and misstatements he had found in Trump’s 70-minute speech, breathlessly debunking them at such a pace that when he finished, Cooper, looking bemused, paused for a moment and then deadpanned, “Oh, that’s it?” ...

 


The Backfire Effect

 

Calling out falsehoods forcefully may actually cause people to hold tighter to their beliefs.

 

That’s the “backfire effect” that academics Brendan Nyhan and Jason Reifler wrote about in their study “When Corrections Fail” about the persistence of political misperceptions: “Direct factual contradictions can actually strengthen ideologically grounded factual beliefs.” ...

 

Belief, therefore, takes the place of fact. ...

 



 





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  #2552247 30-Aug-2020 09:50
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One thing I read on Wikipedia from the 1980 presidential debate that may prove effective to Biden, is what Ronald Reagan asked voters at the end:

 

In his closing remarks, Reagan asked viewers: "Are you better off now than you were four years ago? Is it easier for you to go and buy things in the stores than it was four years ago? Is there more or less unemployment in the country than there was four years ago? Is America as respected throughout the world as it was? Do you feel that our security is as safe, that we're as strong as we were four years ago? And if you answer all of those questions 'yes', why then, I think your choice is very obvious as to whom you will vote for. If you don't agree, if you don't think that this course that we've been on for the last four years is what you would like to see us follow for the next four, then I could suggest another choice that you have."

 

Obviously it may need to be updated/tweaked for today's climate, but I feel this is actually something that could connect with voters this election.


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  #2552259 30-Aug-2020 10:37
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nathan:
freitasm: Trump at some point claimed Democrats wanted a law allowing abortion up to the nineth month...


He literally said this again in his acceptance speech, last night

 

Yes, that's what I was referring to - should be clearer on my post.





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