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  #1668595 12-Nov-2016 15:18
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Rikkitic:

 

It has repeatedly been shown that prosperity and education go together. The better off people are, the better informed they tend to be.

 

Yup. By keeping minimum wages low, the Establishment creates an environment where large numbers of the working class *are* uneducated, and therefore "shouldn't be allowed to vote".

 

 


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  #1668613 12-Nov-2016 15:22
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MikeB4:

 

Fred99:

 

MikeB4:

 

Rikkitic:

 

Isn't the human capacity for irrationality wonderful?

 

 

 

 

 

 

or freedom of choice, it's a wonderful thing.

 

 

 

 

I hate to do this to you - but haven't you been arguing strongly against freedom of choice when it came to marijuana law reform?

 

But freedom of choice is wonderful, even if it's used in a democratic process to select a leader who you know for a fact will cause harm to others?

 

 

Off topic but OK

 

Marijuana is not legal so freedom of choice is not relevant. If the elected representatives change the law then freedom of choice applies. 

 

 

Choices are NOT limited to what is legal. Freedom of choice includes the freedom to choose to break the law, which most people do every day.

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  #1668616 12-Nov-2016 15:29
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freitasm:

 

Fred99:

 

Why in God's name would disaffected marginalised "losers" choose a billionaire messiah who runs beauty pageants, routinely abuses "losers" - for being "losers", and flies around the USA in a gold-plated Boeing 757?

 

 

This is something I still can't understand. People in the lower demographics claim Trump is not part of the establishment. He's a billionaire, real estate investor that lives a life of kings and these people think he'll help them?

 

Tell me in four years.

 

 

 

 

I am not saying he IS the saviour, but I can tell you that he isn't part of the "political" establishment the way Clinton, Bush, Obama are. I do believe he wants to help the US be better, whether he can, different story. 

 

Being a Billionaire, investor or even a sleaze doesn't automatically proclude you from having ideas that may help.

 

Again, not saying he is the answer, but some of his ideas have some merit. Even some of his whacky ones have SOME basis of merit. For example, he doesn't JUST want a wall, he wants a wall, and faster and more efficient processing of people wanting to immigrate from Mexico. 

 

Time will tell, I suspect he never expected to get this far, and it wouldn't surprise me to see him have a "health" event that causes him to need to step down, in which case his VP (A career politician) would take over.


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  #1668617 12-Nov-2016 15:41
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The one worrying thing this does do, is make some of these very fringe ideas, main stream. That is what is dangerous IMO. Things like global warming are scientifically proven, yet he apparently doesn't believe in it, and that is one of the tame ideas. Looks like he is bringing in his sons and daughter to run a lot of things now as well. I suspect they will do most of the work. I agree that some of his ideas make sense and have merit. But they don't seem to be new ideas, and there are likely reasons they haven't been brought in before. Anything that is brought in will have some form of knock on effect.


We are so lucky in NZ not to have a presidential system. Instead we have MMP, which allows these fringe idea and political parties representation , but they are proportionally represented, which is a big difference. When we had FPP, which is more like the system in the US, it didn't really allow for this.

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  #1668620 12-Nov-2016 15:46
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freitasm:

Fred99:


Why in God's name would disaffected marginalised "losers" choose a billionaire messiah who runs beauty pageants, routinely abuses "losers" - for being "losers", and flies around the USA in a gold-plated Boeing 757?



This is something I still can't understand. People in the lower demographics claim Trump is not part of the establishment. He's a billionaire, real estate investor that lives a life of kings and these people think he'll help them?


Tell me in four years.



I don't think logic came into it much. These people in the rust belt and other poor areas, were so disinfrancnised with the democratic system, they they were wanting to vote for anyone but the status quo. Exactly the same with Brexit. They may come out and then say, we didnt want to vote for that, etc if we had known. But that is too late. Perhaps Brexit wasn't all that well covered in the media in the US.

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  #1668622 12-Nov-2016 15:51
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Fred99:

 

PhantomNVD:
Fred99:

 

PhantomNVD:

 

 

 

I see you jumped straight to the far left "medical reasons" excuse for killing children in utero,
so let's leave that alone as we won't agree, and simply agree that many people were led by their own view of morality, and swayed by strong media pressure to revile the opponent in BOTH sides of this argument..

 

You saw nothing of the sort.  I'm very uncomfortable to even begin a rational discussion on the topic, when it's very very clear even if just from the very words you use above, what your views are, and what you've chosen to take from what I've said.  Especially categorising my scientifically supported and well accepted views on that subject as "far left". 

 

 

 

At least use ALL the relevant quote?

 

 

 

No I don't agree - I selectively quoted deliberately - there aren't "both sides" to that argument as one side is a total lie.  I'm not accepting moral/religious dogma as relevant, and I find your use of the words "killing children in utero" as a broad brush to describe late term pregnancy termination to be deeply offensive and insensitive to the feelings of anybody who may have experienced the reality of what is a dreadful tragedy. Trying to score political points from that truly stinks, it's inexcusable - and it was what Trump did.  He is evil.  Truly.

 

 

Fred - using rhetoric like " one side is a total lie" means you will not be taken seriously. By saying that you isolate anyone who believes morality  and / or religion is important part of decision making and are effectively saying you know better than they do - that they are all liars and / or total brain dead dipsticks. The funny thing is you are tarring women who agree with that lie in the same brush strokes, denying them the very right you say you uphold - the right for THEM to choose. you seek to take away their choice - and in so doing become the very thing you decry.

 

As for killing kids - it is or was legal in certain parts of the western world to kill a child as long as they are not fully born - partial birth abortions. That's appalling and is a 40 week termination. it has now been reversed legally - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial-Birth_Abortion_Ban_Act   because at some point the argument is no longer about a woman's body but the child being killed.   A later, 40 week termination is not about a woman's body - she has gone through the process of carrying the child and the child is now viable - which means it is legally a killing of a viable life, not the aborting of a process leading to a viable life.

 

There is no rational argument that says a child that has crowned or is birthed feet first up to the navel is about a womans body. it is literally 5 seconds away from complete detachment and even if killed the woman goes through the same process - completing the birth. ditto - in utero 40 week killings through injecting a substance or performing an action designed to terminate th elife of the child. the woman stil has to give birth / c-section - the only difference is a dead child in stead of a live one.

 

To make an argument a 40 week termination is about a womans body is non-rational and emotive. to say those that think differnetly are liars is to deny reality.

 

please note, I have made this argument from a purely rational point of view - no morality or rleigion involved -e.g. from your side of the fence this time. am I too a liar for disagreeing with YOUR view point?

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  #1668629 12-Nov-2016 16:02
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mattwnz:
freitasm:

 

Fred99:

 

Why in God's name would disaffected marginalised "losers" choose a billionaire messiah who runs beauty pageants, routinely abuses "losers" - for being "losers", and flies around the USA in a gold-plated Boeing 757?

 

 

This is something I still can't understand. People in the lower demographics claim Trump is not part of the establishment. He's a billionaire, real estate investor that lives a life of kings and these people think he'll help them?

 

Tell me in four years.

 



I don't think logic came into it much. These people in the rust belt and other poor areas, were so disinfrancnised with the democratic system, they they were wanting to vote for anyone but the status quo. Exactly the same with Brexit. They may come out and then say, we didnt want to vote for that, etc if we had known. But that is too late. Perhaps Brexit wasn't all that well covered in the media in the US.

 

Agree but ...

 

60 million people voted for Trump - they can't all have been "in the rust belt and other poor areas".

 

Like freitasm, I find Trump's popularity completely incomprehensible ...





Sideface


 
 
 
 


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  #1668631 12-Nov-2016 16:04
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cynnicallemon:

 

Well it looks like Trump may not make it to the White House. Seems like Katy Perry is calling for a revolution...

 

Perry for President, maybe Miley for Vice.

 

 

Actually - looking ahead:

 

Michelle Obama / Kanye West as the two main ticket head liners.

 

kanye - a self made billionaire / millionaire  / broke as a 2 bob watch  - black man, has already indicated his intention to run to much derision and laughter a couple of years back.

 

Michelle Obama  - bright, friendly, photo genic and frankly a direct opposite for those will be ready to hurl trump from office.

 

If anyone had any sense they would nominate Oprah - a black self made woman, who escaped slavery after working her ass off for a mean rich master, direct descendent of Kunta Kintay - an opressed balck man who was self made too - who knows how to run reality TV, is Sooo in touch with the disaffected, is loved by celebrities, has met most of the worlds leaders, has written hundreds of successful books 9 well maybe a couple) nad knows how t handle money nad a huge empire.

 

She's working class, upper class, honest, philanthropic, reality TV experienced ( will wipe the floor with Trump in that area) is a great manager and really really knows how to connect. Perfect nominee.

 

 


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  #1668633 12-Nov-2016 16:04
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I am wondering if there should be a separate thread on the very thorny subject of abortion, or if that part of the discussion should be stopped altogether. Although it certainly makes up a relevant aspect of Trump's election, it is actually a separate issue and one that arouses strong passions. It might be better to keep the two apart so this thread can continue to focus on the election itself.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  #1668640 12-Nov-2016 16:17
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nunz:

 

 

 

Fred - using rhetoric like " one side is a total lie" means you will not be taken seriously.

 

There is no rational argument that says a child that has crowned or is birthed feet first up to the navel is about a womans body. it is literally 5 seconds away from complete detachment and even if killed the woman goes through the same process - completing the birth. ditto - in utero 40 week killings through injecting a substance or performing an action designed to terminate th elife of the child. the woman stil has to give birth / c-section - the only difference is a dead child in stead of a live one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That wasn't rhetoric - it was absolutely a lie in context of the presidential debate. I don't care if you don't take me seriously.

 

I have no idea how you've come up with what I've snipped as second paragraph above. It was never part of the debate, and quite a repulsive thing to bring in to discussion. Crazy irrelevant off-topic stuff you should talk about elsewhere.


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  #1668641 12-Nov-2016 16:18
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Rikkitic:

 

I am wondering if there should be a separate thread on the very thorny subject of abortion, or if that part of the discussion should be stopped altogether. Although it certainly makes up a relevant aspect of Trump's election, it is actually a separate issue and one that arouses strong passions. It might be better to keep the two apart so this thread can continue to focus on the election itself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

No - it's worse than Godwins.


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  #1668653 12-Nov-2016 16:41
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nunz:

 

cynnicallemon:

 

Well it looks like Trump may not make it to the White House. Seems like Katy Perry is calling for a revolution...

 

Perry for President, maybe Miley for Vice.

 

 

Actually - looking ahead:

 

Michelle Obama / Kanye West as the two main ticket head liners.

 

kanye - a self made billionaire / millionaire  / broke as a 2 bob watch  - black man, has already indicated his intention to run to much derision and laughter a couple of years back.

 

Michelle Obama  - bright, friendly, photo genic and frankly a direct opposite for those will be ready to hurl trump from office.

 

If anyone had any sense they would nominate Oprah - a black self made woman, who escaped slavery after working her ass off for a mean rich master, direct descendent of Kunta Kintay - an opressed balck man who was self made too - who knows how to run reality TV, is Sooo in touch with the disaffected, is loved by celebrities, has met most of the worlds leaders, has written hundreds of successful books 9 well maybe a couple) nad knows how t handle money nad a huge empire.

 

She's working class, upper class, honest, philanthropic, reality TV experienced ( will wipe the floor with Trump in that area) is a great manager and really really knows how to connect. Perfect nominee.

 

 

 

 

Could you really trust Oprah for president?

 

Isn't this the same Oprah that endorsed the Microsoft Surface Tablet via her iPad?

 

I prefer this endorsement.

 

 


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  #1668654 12-Nov-2016 16:41
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http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/youll-likely-be-reading-one-of-these-5-articles-the-day-after-the-election/

 

 

 

Well, David Wasserman got five shots at this and got it right on number five, except that he said Trump would get New Hampshire.    Instead he got Michigan.

 

Even though Michigan has not been finalised due to some vote checking process Trump is about 13000 votes ahead.


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  #1668655 12-Nov-2016 16:42
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Fred99:

nunz:


 


Fred - using rhetoric like " one side is a total lie" means you will not be taken seriously.


 



 


That wasn't rhetoric - it was absolutely a lie in context of the presidential debate. I don't care if you don't take me seriously.



https://youtu.be/XKp3k_8h8Qc Hilary said it on live TV, during the presidential debate, how can it be a "total lie in the context of the presidential debate"?

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  #1669663 12-Nov-2016 17:26
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I'm not sure I understand what is being argued about here. I saw the debate and have just watched the clip several times. As far as I can determine, Hillary is just arguing that the health and welfare of the woman should be paramount. All the stuff about her supporting or advocating the termination of babies in the process of being born is just hysterical hyperbole, or a total lie as Fred99 says.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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