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  #1670252 13-Nov-2016 19:56
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Rikkitic:

 

What about those who were disenfranchised by the new voting restriction laws, or were intimidated by the goons supposedly there (on questionable authority) to monitor for voter 'irregularities'?

 

 

 

 

 

 

YEah supposedly doesn't mean much to me. We are talking about a TINY TINY fraction of people in my opinion if any at all. 


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  #1670258 13-Nov-2016 20:01
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networkn:

 

 

 

 

 

YEah supposedly doesn't mean much to me. We are talking about a TINY TINY fraction of people in my opinion if any at all. 

 

 

If it "doesn't mean that much to you" - how on earth are you able to offer the opinion that it's TINY TINY etc?  

 

 

In 2016, 14 states will have new voting restrictions in place for the first time in a presidential election. The new laws range from strict photo ID requirements to early voting cutbacks to registration restrictions.

 

Those 14 states are: Alabama, Arizona, Indiana, Kansas, Mississippi, Nebraska, New Hampshire, Ohio, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia, and Wisconsin.

 

(This number decreased from 15 to 14 when the D.C. Circuit blocked a voter registration requirement in Alabama, Georgia, and Kansas on September 9, 2016. Georgia was removed, but Alabama and Kansas remain on the map because certain restrictions remain in place. Other recent court rulings have impacted the map: North Carolina and North Dakota were removed after courts blocked restrictive laws. Despite a recent court victory mitigating the impact of Texas’s photo ID law, it is still included because the requirement is more restrictive than what was in place for the 2012 presidential election.)  

 

This is part of a broader movement to curtail voting rights, which began after the 2010 election, when state lawmakers nationwide started introducing hundreds of harsh measures making it harder to vote.

 

Overall, 20 states have new restrictions in effect since the 2010 midterm election. Since 2010, a total of 10 states have more restrictive voter ID laws in place (and six states have strict photo ID requirements) seven have laws making it harder for citizens to register, six cut back on early voting days and hours, and three made it harder to restore voting rights for people with past criminal convictions.

 


 
 
 
 


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  #1670259 13-Nov-2016 20:02
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Fred99:

 

 

 

Or the ones that couldn't get time off work to vote on the work day because Republicans don't want elections on the weekend,  the 1/3 of black males excluded from voting under 13th amendment.

 

 

Not sure what you mean by 1/3 of males who can't vote because of 13th amendment? Reference please? 

 

As for people who can't get time off work, why can't those people mail in votes? 


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  #1670260 13-Nov-2016 20:02
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Fred99:

 

 

 

They're clearly happy with that part of the status quo - having the rich rule.  What they don't like are blacks and women in power, hispanics, latino, muslims.  That's what they want Trump to deliver on as a path to "Make America Great Again.

 

By the way, the provisional figure on voter turnout was 57%.  Trump and Clinton got about 26% each support from the voter age population.  Do you think one in four US citizens might be happy with a racist, misogynist, xenophobic president?  I do, but it's much higher than that in Alabama.

 

Democracy has probably just set the USA back 50 years.  

 

 

I think it's more complicated than that. And simpler.
It was, and is, just a huuge protest vote. At first from both sides. If Bernie'd made it to the end maybe he'd have carried it instead..(and things would be so much better - from our point of view)

But I still feel cautiously optimistic. The US system – both the political structure and the economy - is resilient.
And the US economic swamp was settling into stratified layers with not much oxygen in the middle – let alone at the bottom.

I've just talked with some guys in the US I've known for years (these days we stay in contact through Skype/Facetime or their wives and my wife's social media and Facebook)
Apart from the relatively liberal ones out in California, most of them – in small town Idaho, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Kentucky, are now non-repentant Trump voters...

Turns out - not because they expect him to follow through on wild election promises, I don't think many actually believed that crap - but because he was a disruptor.
So you can say, they – at least – pretty much just did it for a stir... And he's done what they wanted - damaging both sides before he's even in office.

These guys traditionally vote Republican but that party'd become too stale – conservative, old fashioned, and particularly too religious for them. So they got behind Trump as soon as he began gaining traction in the primaries.

First the Republicans - Then they realised he could take on the Democrats.. who they see as bogged down by political correctness, so busy supporting women, gays, minorities, multiculturalism, immigrants etc they'd forgotten about the average guy who works 6 day weeks and pays taxes.

 

These are white, educated, employed, gen Xers. Aged in their 40's – maybe coming up on 50, pretty much normal middle aged dudes, and mostly married with kids.
They're not dumb Appalachian hillbillies, or racist bigots. One's actually a Kiwi who emigrated and took on US citizenship..

 

I'm pretty sure the risk they're taking with their country's crossed their minds, but they figure, if he's a complete disaster, his own Republicans will impeach him or force him to step down rather than risk being destroyed, and Pence'll take over. And, just maybe, at the next election, a new fresh era in American politics will be ushered in. Guess we'll find out.

 

 

 

 


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  #1670296 13-Nov-2016 21:08
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Sidestep:

 



First the Republicans - Then they realised he could take on the Democrats.. who they see as bogged down by political correctness, so busy supporting women, gays, minorities, multiculturalism, immigrants etc they'd forgotten about the average guy who works 6 day weeks and pays taxes.

 

These are white, educated, employed, gen Xers. Aged in their 40's – maybe coming up on 50, pretty much normal middle aged dudes, and mostly married with kids.
They're not dumb Appalachian hillbillies, or racist bigots. One's actually a Kiwi who emigrated and took on US citizenship..

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's quite an easy message to sell - that "PC" one, that "supporting" the disadvantaged hurts "joe sixpack".  

 

There is a bottom line for me - and that's bigotry.  I'd never vote for a bigot even if they'd promised me the world in every other way, and I'd certainly not shut up if NZ elected a bigot.  That would get me out on the street waving banners whatever, as to do nothing is wrong.

 

I'm not sure about your impression of US Trump voter demographic.  Not arguing - I'm just not sure as we have different experiences.  I've spent some time in most states - travelled all over the place on the move, talking to people. I've seen more of the US than most Americans.  I came to the overwhelming conclusion that if I was other than white, I'd seriously avoid most of it - and I'd wager that the places I'd avoid most would correlate close to 100% with the red states on the US election result map.  People are sometimes guardedly racist (that conversation starts along the lines of "I'm not racist - but...) or quite openly racist in the South and Midwest.  It is not like here where you do come across it - but relatively rarely.  I've been in social situations with conservative whites, where I have bitten my lip when they've launched into it. To me, it seemed like I'd stumbled into a Klan meeting. On the other hand, I know wonderful people there. 

 

I have no doubt at all that racism motivated many Trump voters.  That is_not_good in any way.


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  #1670298 13-Nov-2016 21:11
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Sidestep:

 


It was, and is, just a huuge protest vote. At first from both sides. If Bernie'd made it to the end maybe he'd have carried it instead..(and things would be so much better - from our point of view)

 

What I found quite interesting, and why I was so confident that Clinton would win the Electoral vote by a comfortable margin, was in Obama's second campaign, where I'd felt he had been a pretty good President, and whilst initially when he was elected and comfortably won, Americans seemed happy with his choices, so many 

 

people I know and respect from the US, intelligent and politically knowledgeable (relatively) people were saying they wouldn't vote for him again as he wasn't getting stuff done. They knew the Republicans were behaving really REALLY badly, and that Romney was real trouble for the country too, they wanted ANY momentum, even backward. 

 

It was a close popular vote, but comfortable to Obama electorally, because the College was more conservative etc.

 

I expected the same from the College this time around. 

 

 


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  #1670304 13-Nov-2016 21:32
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Here's a snip from a facebook response to a post made by a friend of mine in NY.

 

"We were willing to gamble that whatever character flaws our candidate had would be attenuated once he assumed the enormous responsibilities of the Office of President"

 

I find that quite remarkable - that anybody in their right mind would even dream of voting for someone with "whatever character flaws"  - in the hope that handing that very obviously flawed person enormous power would somehow act to help them overcome those flaws.  Absolute lunacy.

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  #1670311 13-Nov-2016 22:02
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Fred99:

 

Sidestep:

 



First the Republicans - Then they realised he could take on the Democrats.. who they see as bogged down by political correctness, so busy supporting women, gays, minorities, multiculturalism, immigrants etc they'd forgotten about the average guy who works 6 day weeks and pays taxes.

 

These are white, educated, employed, gen Xers. Aged in their 40's – maybe coming up on 50, pretty much normal middle aged dudes, and mostly married with kids.
They're not dumb Appalachian hillbillies, or racist bigots. One's actually a Kiwi who emigrated and took on US citizenship..

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's quite an easy message to sell - that "PC" one, that "supporting" the disadvantaged hurts "joe sixpack".  

 

There is a bottom line for me - and that's bigotry.  I'd never vote for a bigot even if they'd promised me the world in every other way, and I'd certainly not shut up if NZ elected a bigot.  That would get me out on the street waving banners whatever, as to do nothing is wrong.

 

I'm not sure about your impression of US Trump voter demographic.  Not arguing - I'm just not sure as we have different experiences.  I've spent some time in most states - travelled all over the place on the move, talking to people. I've seen more of the US than most Americans.  I came to the overwhelming conclusion that if I was other than white, I'd seriously avoid most of it - and I'd wager that the places I'd avoid most would correlate close to 100% with the red states on the US election result map.  People are sometimes guardedly racist (that conversation starts along the lines of "I'm not racist - but...) or quite openly racist in the South and Midwest.  It is not like here where you do come across it - but relatively rarely.  I've been in social situations with conservative whites, where I have bitten my lip when they've launched into it. To me, it seemed like I'd stumbled into a Klan meeting. On the other hand, I know wonderful people there. 

 

I have no doubt at all that racism motivated many Trump voters.  That is_not_good in any way.

 

 

 

 

I suspect that a lot of people being told that, because their opinions did not accord with the particular opinions of the political class, they were rednecks/racists/bigots/xenophobes or what have you was a significant driving force in both the Brexit outcome and this US election outcome.

 

"Your opinions are wrong and ours are the only ones that matter" is not a way to secure votes in the long term....






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  #1670586 14-Nov-2016 11:22
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Fred99:

 

Sidestep:

 

First the Republicans - Then they realised he could take on the Democrats.. who they see as bogged down by political correctness, so busy supporting women, gays, minorities, multiculturalism, immigrants etc they'd forgotten about the average guy who works 6 day weeks and pays taxes.

 

These are white, educated, employed, gen Xers. Aged in their 40's – maybe coming up on 50, pretty much normal middle aged dudes, and mostly married with kids.
They're not dumb Appalachian hillbillies, or racist bigots. One's actually a Kiwi who emigrated and took on US citizenship..

 

 

It's quite an easy message to sell - that "PC" one, that "supporting" the disadvantaged hurts "joe sixpack".  

 

There is a bottom line for me - and that's bigotry.  I'd never vote for a bigot even if they'd promised me the world in every other way, and I'd certainly not shut up if NZ elected a bigot.  That would get me out on the street waving banners whatever, as to do nothing is wrong.

 

 

I'm not sure any of us know who/what we would vote for if we felt our lives were bad enough.  Altruism and inclusiveness (beyond immediate family) are things most people think about after their basic needs are met.





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  #1670663 14-Nov-2016 12:44
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Regarding Godwin's Law. I have strong reasons to not allow Godwin's on Geekzone and I stick to those reasons. Earlier on I have even removed a couple of posts from this thread based on FUG.

 

However, after looking at this thread and at the person involved, the whole situation and the current events, I deem appropriate in this instance only, to draw comparison with the rise (and fall) of the Nazi regime in Germany.

 

Please keep civil. 





 

 

These links are referral codes

 

Geekzone broadband switch | Eletricity comparison and switch | Hatch investment (NZ$ 10 bonus if NZ$100 deposited within 30 days) | Sharesies | Mighty Ape | Backblaze | Amazon | My technology disclosure 


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  #1670672 14-Nov-2016 12:56
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freitasm:

 

Regarding Godwin's Law. I have strong reasons to not allow Godwin's on Geekzone and I stick to those reasons. Earlier on I have even removed a couple of posts from this thread based on FUG.

 

However, after looking at this thread and at the person involved, the whole situation and the current events, I deem appropriate in this instance only, to draw comparison with the rise (and fall) of the Nazi regime in Germany.

 

Please keep civil. 

 

 

 

 

Thank you Mauricio.  I believe you've made the right decision there, as the parallels are in my opinion undeniable.

 

It's also evident from many posts in this thread suggesting that "we should just carry on" and "it's not our business and not our right to comment on US domestic politics", that we could repeat the grave mistakes of the 1930s.




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  #1670674 14-Nov-2016 12:59
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I genuinely hope that Trumpy doesn't turn out to be like the Austrian fella with the funny mustache. I guess we'll have to wait and see how his term or terms in office start to pan out.


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  #1670687 14-Nov-2016 13:06
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DarthKermit:

 

I genuinely hope that Trumpy doesn't turn out to be like the Austrian fella with the funny mustache. I guess we'll have to wait and see how his term or terms in office start to pan out.

 

 

 

 

I'd say the chances are pretty slim. 

 

Just because someone firms up and gets a bit right wing it does not mean that they are going to start a new Final Solution...

 

There is a modern tendency to point at anyone who is not a liberal lefty and suggest that they will soon be growing that moustache etc etc, which seems a long bow to draw to me.






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  #1670688 14-Nov-2016 13:12
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DarthKermit:

 

I genuinely hope that Trumpy doesn't turn out to be like the Austrian fella with the funny mustache. I guess we'll have to wait and see how his term or terms in office start to pan out.

 

 

And in all honesty I don't think he will be, however I think he is a stepping stone.

 

Currently there is a lot of hate in the US towards Trump, this is never going to be a good thing as hate only polarises and generates more hate.

 

Looking at the current situation, with both Brexit and Trump, 2 scenarios built on hate and frustration we have some significant building blocks in place.

 

Trump's rhetoric has calmed significantly since he won the election, I predict that Trump will settle in and become an adequate president, however someone from the far right, or a group could well assassinate Trump, this would only further the hate division and open the flood gates to an even worse leader.

 

I have been reading some interesting articles asking what moment will be the Archduke Ferdinand moment? What is going to be the match to the tinder box?

 

My intention with posting here is not to offend, it is to incite an genuinely intellectual conversation. 


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  #1670690 14-Nov-2016 13:13
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I think the election of Trump is very dangerous as is the rise of demagogues like him in Europe. It is cheap to dismiss the demonstrations against him as left-wing rent-a-mobs. Bad things are happening on both sides of the political divide and I find this very worrying. Contrast it to the celebrations after Obama's election. Trump is purposely appealling to the worst instincts of his supporters and is unleashing very dangerous passions. Many are taking it as a license to indulge in racist, xenophobic, homophobic, intolerant, ugly behaviour towards everyone they don't agree with or approve of. This is very disturbing. As I have said before, history doesn't repeat itself but there are vital lessons to be learned from what happened in Germany and people should be taking this very seriously. It is not a joke.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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