Donald Trump, US President #47, US President #45, convicted felon, twice impeached, four times indicted, liable of rape, convicted for financial fraud, guilty of hiding hush money payments to porn actress in attempt to influence 2016 elections

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Forums › Politics › Donald Trump, US President #47, US President #45, convicted felon, twice impeached, four times indicted, liable of rape, convicted for financial fraud, guilty of hiding hush money payments to porn actress in attempt to influence 2016 elections

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dickytim

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#1670693 14-Nov-2016 13:15

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Geektastic:

DarthKermit:

I genuinely hope that Trumpy doesn't turn out to be like the Austrian fella with the funny mustache. I guess we'll have to wait and see how his term or terms in office start to pan out.

I'd say the chances are pretty slim.

Just because someone firms up and gets a bit right wing it does not mean that they are going to start a new Final Solution...

There is a modern tendency to point at anyone who is not a liberal lefty and suggest that they will soon be growing that moustache etc etc, which seems a long bow to draw to me.

In isolation yes, but when preaching hate and division openly we start to see an different potential.

I don't believe DT is the next AH but I do believe he is a stepping stone.

freitasm

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#1670701 14-Nov-2016 13:33

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And now he gave the chief strategist job to a white supremacist conspiracy theorist .

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Fred99

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#1670702 14-Nov-2016 13:33

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DarthKermit:

I genuinely hope that Trumpy doesn't turn out to be like the Austrian fella with the funny mustache. I guess we'll have to wait and see how his term or terms in office start to pan out.

Perhaps there's a risk from making assumption that a move to isolationism/nationalism promoted by inciting general fear / xenophobia will manifest in exactly the same way.

The world is very different. 1920/30s Germany was in a far worse state than post GFC USA. As far as I know, it's not cheaper in the USA to wallpaper your house in banknotes, and you don't need a wheelbarrow full of hyperinflation devalued banknotes to take to the grocery store to buy a loaf of bread - if there is any bread of course. Did pre-Nazi Germans have a right to be angry? Why sure as hell they did.

Information is now far more freely available to all. Of course there's widespread propaganda as always, but it's not too hard to find a Huffington Post to read "the other side" once you've been stirred up by something on Breitbart.com. Something has really gone wrong - it's different to the past rise of fascism, but it is without doubt fascism.

Will Trump "make America great again"? Why sure he could, Hitler achieved remarkable things economically, but at what cost?

And there's the real clanger. If Trump succeeds with economic goals, he's going to become more fervently supported, he'll get truly popular. There will be popular support to crush resistance at any cost, and "everyone" (ie "disaffected" individuals in other nations) will want their own leaders to emulate Trump's success.

Perhaps it's just a natural result, evolution of democratic capitalism, defeat the common enemy (communism), then hunt for new enemies to keep the machine driving forward.

Rikkitic

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#1670726 14-Nov-2016 13:36

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Geektastic:

I'd say the chances are pretty slim.

Just because someone firms up and gets a bit right wing it does not mean that they are going to start a new Final Solution...

There is a modern tendency to point at anyone who is not a liberal lefty and suggest that they will soon be growing that moustache etc etc, which seems a long bow to draw to me.

I am still reflecting on all this. I don't know how dangerous or 'evil' Trump himself is. I see him as a bombastic, self-obsessed shallow individual who will do or say anything to get what he wants. I see his election as an anomoly. What really bothers me is the dark passions being unleased in all those who usually hide under rocks and now think it is socially acceptable to publically spew their vile venom. There could also be an ongoing pattern of escalating violence against those they think they now have approval to target. Regardless of Trump's character or motives, he could be unleashing forces he can't control and that concerns me a great deal.

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Fred99

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#1670768 14-Nov-2016 14:02

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Rikkitic:

I don't know how dangerous or 'evil' Trump himself is. I see him as a bombastic, self-obsessed shallow individual who will do or say anything to get what he wants.

Add to it that he's got remarkable talent to address an audience and rouse them, to gain "forgiveness" from them for all he's done and promised to do (which they may have reservations about accepting in isolation) - because in the "big picture" it's really going to be worth it, and you've answered the first question. He is very dangerous indeed.

Not IMO a conventional "right wing" politician at all. At the heart of the GOP they were (and hopefully will remain - though I have grave doubts) opposed to Trumpism.

To throw something into discussion, libertarianism has been at the heart of most Republican ideology since (or before?) Reagan. Thatcher was also a libertarian. They (Reagan etc) justy never carried it out very well.

Trump is NOT a libertarian - he's as diametrically opposed to libertarianism as communism is.

Batman

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#1670771 14-Nov-2016 14:06

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He hasn't said anything bad since election day. Long may it remain.

MikeAqua

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#1670780 14-Nov-2016 14:24

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One of the many things that has surprised me about this election is the extent to which I have seen intelligent, thoughtful and fair minded people I know ingest and regurgitate without critique anything and everything negative said about Trump. They have done this while accusing those who voted for him of thoughtlessness.

Not that there isn't plenty to dislike about Trump, but plenty of democrats within the US and left leaning people outside it, have been drinking the Kool-aid too.

Mike

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#1670781 14-Nov-2016 14:24

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Rikkitic:

Geektastic:

I'd say the chances are pretty slim.

Just because someone firms up and gets a bit right wing it does not mean that they are going to start a new Final Solution...

There is a modern tendency to point at anyone who is not a liberal lefty and suggest that they will soon be growing that moustache etc etc, which seems a long bow to draw to me.

I am still reflecting on all this. I don't know how dangerous or 'evil' Trump himself is. I see him as a bombastic, self-obsessed shallow individual who will do or say anything to get what he wants. I see his election as an anomoly. What really bothers me is the dark passions being unleased in all those who usually hide under rocks and now think it is socially acceptable to publically spew their vile venom. There could also be an ongoing pattern of escalating violence against those they think they now have approval to target. Regardless of Trump's character or motives, he could be unleashing forces he can't control and that concerns me a great deal.

There is inherent danger in simply classifying people whose views do not concur with the prevailing groupthink, or whose views are considered distasteful or whatever, as some sort of problem to be erased. It is that which is as much the reason that we have Brexit, Trump and soon Le Pen etc as anything else.

It's a vast issue which is far to great to condense here into a meaningful debate really but consider thinking outside the box a bit. For example (and these are examples, I am not condoning, endorsing or in any other way suggesting approval of the following, merely hypothesising)

Let us assume that there are wide sectors of societies across the world who would like to live in a particular way.

Is it likely to produce more general happiness if we force them not to do that because we think they should not do it or if we create places where they can lead their lives the way they want to? Which will lead to a more peaceful society? For example, Indian reservations in the US or Israel are places where this kind of approach has already been taken.

I mention this simply because it seems to me that the problems we see are because we have forced people to do things that they do not wish to do, rather than tried to find solutions that enable that where possible. Trumps, Brexits and Le Pens etc are seismic shifts caused by keeping the lid on a pressure cooker too long whilst at the same time whistling to ourselves and pretending that nothing will happen as a result of doing that.

The solutions may be much, much larger than "wait a few years and elect someone else for business as usual to resume". What was right in the immediate post-war period may not now be right and may require a more root and branch alteration as we head into the future.

Rikkitic

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#1670788 14-Nov-2016 14:38

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MikeAqua:

One of the many things that has surprised me about this election is the extent to which I have seen intelligent, thoughtful and fair minded people I know ingest and regurgitate without critique anything and everything negative said about Trump. They have done this while accusing those who voted for him of thoughtlessness.

Not that there isn't plenty to dislike about Trump, but plenty of democrats within the US and left leaning people outside it, have been drinking the Kool-aid too.

I have not drunk any kool-aid. My visceral dislike of Trump is based entirely on what I have seen him say and do. He thinks it is fine to grope the genitals of women, make fun of disabled people, and refuse to abide by the rules of democracy, o cite only a very few of his well-documented utterances. He is rotten human being and I despise him entirely for that reason. Anyone who voted for him, rather than against what they imagined the 'establishment' to be, fully deserves the label of thoughtless, and probably brainless as well. This will prove to be an historic mistake of possibly apocolyptic proportions.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Rikkitic

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#1670793 14-Nov-2016 14:51

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Geektastic:

Is it likely to produce more general happiness if we force them not to do that because we think they should not do it or if we create places where they can lead their lives the way they want to? Which will lead to a more peaceful society? For example, Indian reservations in the US or Israel are places where this kind of approach has already been taken.

I believe in right and wrong. I believe these are absolutes, not shades of. The confinement of American Indians to reservations was an obscenity, one of the big lies upon which America is built. The position of the Palestinians is similar and is probably directly and indirectly responsible for the tens of thousands of murders that have taken place in the Middle East. Israel is not a happy place, for almost anyone living there. Unemployment, poverty and drunkenness are the main defining characteristics of reservation life. Whose happiness is being looked after here?

A slave-owner allowed to keep his plantations and human propterty may well be happier, but that doesn't make it right. A society that is fair to all may make those who don't believe in equal opportunity for everyone unhappy, but for me that is no reason at all to go in that direction.

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shk292

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#1670794 14-Nov-2016 14:53

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Rikkitic:

What really bothers me is the dark passions being unleased in all those who usually hide under rocks and now think it is socially acceptable to publically spew their vile venom. There could also be an ongoing pattern of escalating violence against those they think they now have approval to target.

Just to clarify - are you referring to the lefties who are protesting in the streets of NZ and burning USA flags here? Or some other group? Just that the former don't tend to hide under rocks

Fred99

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#1670817 14-Nov-2016 15:00

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shk292:

Rikkitic:

What really bothers me is the dark passions being unleased in all those who usually hide under rocks and now think it is socially acceptable to publically spew their vile venom. There could also be an ongoing pattern of escalating violence against those they think they now have approval to target.

Just to clarify - are you referring to the lefties who are protesting in the streets of NZ and burning USA flags here? Or some other group? Just that the former don't tend to hide under rocks

May I ask that we cool down a bit?

Burning US flags actually insults Americans who didn't vote Trump. It's not a good thing to do nor message to send. Hitler had his own special flag that everyone should have burned.

People should however be very aware that Hitler had a lot of popular support outside Germany, in the US, in Britain - countries who in the end finally defeated him at huge cost.

Rikkitic

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#1670818 14-Nov-2016 15:03

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shk292:

Just to clarify - are you referring to the lefties who are protesting in the streets of NZ and burning USA flags here? Or some other group? Just that the former don't tend to hide under rocks

How about the kids in that American classroom screaming build the wall at their latino classmates? Or the documented assaults on people with brown skins? Those kids have parents that I would certainly classify as rock-dwellers. The cretins who somehow think that Trump's election legitimises overt racism also used to stay out of sight. And how do you know that the flag-burners here are 'lefties'? What do you imagine a 'leftie' is?

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DarthKermit

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#1670819 14-Nov-2016 15:09

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That earthquake we just had is very obviously a sign that the gods aren't happy that Trump was elected.*

*Well, that's what I'd expect some conspiracy nutters to proclaim if it had struck in the USA.

Rikkitic

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#1670821 14-Nov-2016 15:11

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Only if it was an asteroid.

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