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Mad Scientist
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  #1670822 14-Nov-2016 15:14
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I don't even see why this has become so heated.

 

320million people played a game of survivor.

 

the rules are clear, and have been clear from the start. no immunity challenges, anything goes, as long as within the rule book.

 

20 contestants were selected.

 

after a while it came down to the final 2.

 

the lady and the man made their speeches. the man wins, by a little bit. the lady and her supporters cry, saying it's unfair.

 

the television audience are even more animated!

 

you cannot blame the man for winning. you cannot blame the people for choosing him.

 

blame the system that allowed this to happen.





Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


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  #1670823 14-Nov-2016 15:16
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Rikkitic:

 

I have not drunk any kool-aid. My visceral dislike of Trump is based entirely on what I have seen him say and do. He thinks it is fine to grope the genitals of women, ..., o cite only a very few of his well-documented utterances.

 

 

Actually, his well-documented utterance wasn't that he thought it was fine to grope the genitals of women. What he actually said was "And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything ... Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything." This doesn't say anything about whether he thinks it's fine... just that some women are so star-struck that they will allow anything.

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  #1670827 14-Nov-2016 15:20
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They both have dirt. The people (who voted) preferred her dirt, but due to the first past the post electoral college, Trump wins. That's how the cookie crumbled. Not much in it overall, but a lot in it due to the first past the post.





Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


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  #1670828 14-Nov-2016 15:22
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Rikkitic:

 

Geektastic:

 

Is it likely to produce more general happiness if we force them not to do that because we think they should not do it or if we create places where they can lead their lives the way they want to? Which will lead to a more peaceful society? For example, Indian reservations in the US or Israel are places where this kind of approach has already been taken.

 

 

I believe in right and wrong. I believe these are absolutes, not shades of. The confinement of American Indians to reservations was an obscenity, one of the big lies upon which America is built. The position of the Palestinians is similar and is probably directly and indirectly responsible for the tens of thousands of murders that have taken place in the Middle East. Israel is not a happy place, for almost anyone living there. Unemployment, poverty and drunkenness are the main defining characteristics of reservation life. Whose happiness is being looked after here? 

 

A slave-owner allowed to keep his plantations and human propterty may well be happier, but that doesn't make it right. A society that is fair to all may make those who don't believe in equal opportunity for everyone unhappy, but for me that is no reason at all to go in that direction.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Out of interest, who defines 'right' and 'wrong'?

 

Seems to me that some other folks may have a differing view regarding the definition than you do. Who gets to be referee? It gets like religion - who is correct and what will happen to the ones who made the wrong bet?

 

I did not cite Israel as an example of happiness, but of a new state created for a specific purpose.






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  #1670832 14-Nov-2016 15:30
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frankv:

 

Rikkitic:

 

I have not drunk any kool-aid. My visceral dislike of Trump is based entirely on what I have seen him say and do. He thinks it is fine to grope the genitals of women, ..., o cite only a very few of his well-documented utterances.

 

 

Actually, his well-documented utterance wasn't that he thought it was fine to grope the genitals of women. What he actually said was "And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything ... Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything." This doesn't say anything about whether he thinks it's fine... just that some women are so star-struck that they will allow anything.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh yeah that's right.  Bad enough for Billy Bush to be suspended and then resigning for standing alongside as he was saying it, but not so bad that the President Elect of the USA brushes it off as "locker room talk" - the kind of thing we all say, apparently. 


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  #1670835 14-Nov-2016 15:39
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Geektastic:

 

 

 

Out of interest, who defines 'right' and 'wrong'?

 

 

 

 

I don't think it is a matter of 'who'. I  think some things are so wrong it is self-evident to everyone who is not a psychotic serial killer. It is wrong to hurt people, and don't give me rubbish about hurting some to help others, or how I define 'hurt'. Taking pleasure in someone else's pain is wrong. Indiscriminate killing of families to keep yourself in a palace is wrong. Many evils and injustices are just wrong. If you don't have enough moral sense to see that, then you are also wrong.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


Devastation by stupidity
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  #1670838 14-Nov-2016 15:43
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frankv:

 

 

 

Actually, his well-documented utterance wasn't that he thought it was fine to grope the genitals of women. What he actually said was "And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything ... Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything." This doesn't say anything about whether he thinks it's fine... just that some women are so star-struck that they will allow anything.

 

 

I don't want to get mired in arguments about minutiae, but I think there is a case for implied approval here.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


 
 
 
 


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  #1670844 14-Nov-2016 15:56
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shk292:

 

 

 

Just to clarify - are you referring to the lefties who are protesting in the streets of NZ and burning USA flags here?  Or some other group?  Just that the former don't tend to hide under rocks

 

 

Some tweets from the Trump himself from 2012 when Obama won a second term http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/donald-trumps-2012-election-tweetstorm-resurfaces-popular-electoral/story?id=43431536

 

"The electoral college is a disaster for a democracy."
"We can't let this happen. We should march on Washington and stop this travesty. Our nation is totally divided!"
"Lets fight like hell and stop this great and disgusting injustice! The world is laughing at us."
"This election is a total sham and a travesty. We are not a democracy!"

 

The very same "sham", "travesty" and "disaster" he described in 2012 just handed him the presidency, despite losing the popular vote (Even Obama won that both times). But will he now push for change to the system to fix the very problems he highlighted, which would delegitimise his win? Don't think so.

 

And that's all you really need to know about the guy.





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  #1670853 14-Nov-2016 16:08
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And to add to the above, Trump tweeted last week "Just had a very open and successful presidential election. Now professional protesters, incited by the media, are protesting. Very unfair!"

 

He's calling unfair the very thing he was suggesting in 2012 when he tweeted "We should march on Washington and stop this travesty".





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  #1670855 14-Nov-2016 16:19
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ajobbins:

 

And to add to the above, Trump tweeted last week "Just had a very open and successful presidential election. Now professional protesters, incited by the media, are protesting. Very unfair!"

 

He's calling unfair the very thing he was suggesting in 2012 when he tweeted "We should march on Washington and stop this travesty".

 

 

 

 

I think he realised the hypocrisy - or someone close to him pointed it out.  Next day he tweeted:

 

"Love the fact that the small groups of protesters last night have passion for our great country. We will all come together and be proud!"

 

 




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  #1670856 14-Nov-2016 16:19
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Don't forget that it was only gonna be unfair and rigged if he lost!


JWR

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  #1670859 14-Nov-2016 16:25
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Rikkitic:

 

Geektastic:

 

Is it likely to produce more general happiness if we force them not to do that because we think they should not do it or if we create places where they can lead their lives the way they want to? Which will lead to a more peaceful society? For example, Indian reservations in the US or Israel are places where this kind of approach has already been taken.

 

 

I believe in right and wrong. I believe these are absolutes, not shades of. The confinement of American Indians to reservations was an obscenity, one of the big lies upon which America is built. The position of the Palestinians is similar and is probably directly and indirectly responsible for the tens of thousands of murders that have taken place in the Middle East. Israel is not a happy place, for almost anyone living there. Unemployment, poverty and drunkenness are the main defining characteristics of reservation life. Whose happiness is being looked after here? 

 

A slave-owner allowed to keep his plantations and human propterty may well be happier, but that doesn't make it right. A society that is fair to all may make those who don't believe in equal opportunity for everyone unhappy, but for me that is no reason at all to go in that direction.

 

 

 

 

I disagree with the idea of absolutes in right and wrong.

 

I do agree that there are things that almost everyone would agree are wrong/bad or right/good.

 

But, the World is far, far more grey than it is black and white.

 

If fact, I think it is dangerous to oversimplify things like this.

 

A lot of injustice and oppression starts with this type of thinking.


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  #1670865 14-Nov-2016 16:30
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Fair enough but I respectfully disagree. Some things you just have to stand for.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  #1670870 14-Nov-2016 16:58
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Rikkitic:

 

frankv:

 

 

 

Actually, his well-documented utterance wasn't that he thought it was fine to grope the genitals of women. What he actually said was "And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything ... Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything." This doesn't say anything about whether he thinks it's fine... just that some women are so star-struck that they will allow anything.

 

 

I don't want to get mired in arguments about minutiae, but I think there is a case for implied approval here.

 

 

Yeah, I'm happy to let it drop. The (probably) last thing I'll say is...

 

You did say "My visceral dislike of Trump is based entirely on what I have seen him say and do." and then went on to use something he did NOT say "that he thought it was fine to grope the genitals of women" as an example. Instead, it's based (in part) on the "implied approval" *you* have inferred from his words. As I hope everyone here knows, I'm no Trump fan. But IMHO you do need to base your visceral dislike on things he actually said.

 

While I'm at it, I'll also reply to this:

 

Fred99:

 

 

Oh yeah that's right.  Bad enough for Billy Bush to be suspended and then resigning for standing alongside as he was saying it, but not so bad that the President Elect of the USA brushes it off as "locker room talk" - the kind of thing we all say, apparently. 

 

 

I don't know *why* Billy Bush was suspended and then resigned. Do you? It could be because he released the recording. But could it have been because he didn't allow his employer to make as much out of this money-spinner of a recording secret?  Or maybe he was bonking the editor's wife? Maybe he just wasn't bringing in the ratings, so he got a golden handshake? Maybe it was pressure from Trump himself, or some insider in the Republican Party, or Hillary Clinton, or some insider in the Democrat Party. Maybe he was just collateral damage in the media beatup of the whole thing.

 

The presence of groupies around rock groups is an example of exactly the same thing... sex of any kind is available on demand from strangers for famous people. I heard Robbie Williams say essentially the same thing, complete with anecdotal example, on a TV chat show a week or two ago. I've had "locker room" discussions on this subject before (although not in locker rooms)... I guess I'm just fortunate or clever or insignificant enough not to have been recorded saying it, and that no-one cares anyway. I don't understand the motivation of the groupies, but it's undeniable that they exist. I view that with incredulity, so maybe *I* heard an overtone of incredulity in Trump's voice as he was explaining essentially the same thing to the DJ.

 

And I'm somewhat incredulous that the whole thing blew up into such a media feeding frenzy of moral outrage, and that a whole group of people took *this* as a rallying cry against Trump.

 

 

 


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  #1670876 14-Nov-2016 17:40
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Applause. You make good points and I am happy to concede them. I agree that I was sloppy about that example, but I still think Trump is a rotten human being. Even if he didn't actually say that, he also did not go out of his way to condemn it. But okay, what are some other things that have brought about my visceral dislike? I guess I could mention his coyness about his tax returns, or his apparently fraudulent actions with Trump University. What about his many proven lies (I can't cite them all here but the fact-checking sites have them) against his opponents during the campaigns? Apparently he is now backing off many of his more outrageous campaign promises, like his much-vaunted wall and deporations. Are those more lies or just excusable hyperbole? I found his lack of respect for the democratic institutions (unwillingness to accept the election results if they went against him) alarming. There are many other things, and if I am forced to, I am prepared to look them up and document them, but the bottom line is that he is an unpleasant and possibly dangerous person and I don't like him. I would like to emphasise that I don't like him because I find him unlikeable, not because of his politics as such. I preferred Barack Obama as President at the time, but I would have had no problem accepting John McCain (though Sarah Palin is another matter). Also not Mitt Romney. All of these people have their drawbacks, but I would not qualify them as rotten human beings. Donald Trump I would.

 

My moral outrage is not dependent on the pussy video. There is plenty more to be outraged about.





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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