The President Of The USA: Donald Trump

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# 1710507 27-Jan-2017 10:01

tdgeek:

Paul1977: This is a Donald Trump thread, it just seems anti-Trump because there aren't a lot of nice things to say about him.

There isn't. But the anti stuff dilutes the ok stuff. He isn't Amin, Hitler, or any other dictator, he is just a mouth

All the bad stuff absolutely should outweigh any "ok" stuff.

You argument reminds me a t-shirt I once saw that said "What about all the good things Hitler did?"

While I am not of the opinion that Trump is, or will become, what Hitler ended up being; the basic premise applies - you can't use a small amount of good to forgive an enormous amount of bad.

freitasm

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# 1710518 27-Jan-2017 10:12

Trump says import tax will pay for wall.

Americans will end up paying 100% for something they don't need.

MikeB4

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# 1710524 27-Jan-2017 10:17

freitasm:

Trump says import tax will pay for wall.

Americans will end up paying 100% for something they don't need.

every time an American buys a cellphone or a loaf of bread they will say to themselves All in all it's just another brick in the wall

Mike
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tdgeek

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# 1710525 27-Jan-2017 10:22

Paul1977:

tdgeek:

Paul1977: This is a Donald Trump thread, it just seems anti-Trump because there aren't a lot of nice things to say about him.

There isn't. But the anti stuff dilutes the ok stuff. He isn't Amin, Hitler, or any other dictator, he is just a mouth

All the bad stuff absolutely should outweigh any "ok" stuff.

You argument reminds me a t-shirt I once saw that said "What about all the good things Hitler did?"

While I am not of the opinion that Trump is, or will become, what Hitler ended up being; the basic premise applies - you can't use a small amount of good to forgive an enormous amount of bad.

I was trying to have a discussion on one particular topic, Mexican immigration issue, is there anything wrong with that? Well yes, as this is purely and simply a hate thread.

If its not possible to discuss any topics other than hatred, I won't bother joining the plethora of multi adjective anger posts. I guess next I will be labelled a Trump supporter.

Crazy stuff

frankv

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# 1710531 27-Jan-2017 10:35

Digging a little deeper, the Wikipedia link given is talking about Hispanic *ethnicity* rather than Mexican *nationality*, so presumably also includes Central American countries and maybe Ecuador and other South American countries, and maybe Caribbean countries like Haiti. OTOH, the graph counts apprehensions, not actual illegal entry attempts. So both these facts may be simultaneously true.

However, from America's (Trump's) point of view, neither is particularly relevant. The nationality or ethnicity isn't important; it's the route through Mexico that would be affected by the wall. Bombast about stopping "Mexican" rapists and drug dealers notwithstanding.

After quite a bit of Googling, the best I could find on actual numbers of illegal immigrants via Mexico was http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d06770.pdf for 1998-2004 -- if someone finds later figures, then it would be good to see them.

Table 2, pg 42, shows estimated illegal entries from Mexico to be more or less stable at about 500K p.a. from 1998-2004. Screenshot. The "apprehensions" column seems to correlate pretty well with the graph of apprehensions of Mexicans. It appears that during that period about 25% of attempts from Mexico were successful, and that Mexico was the route for about 45% of illegal immigrants.

Fred99

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# 1710536 27-Jan-2017 10:41

When it comes (and it will) to looking at NZ:US trade, one thing will be overlooked. The current bilateral trade balance shows a slight advantage to NZ, indicating that "we're doing okay" out of bilateral trade.

But trade stats for goods are based on country of origin, so buy a US "branded" product like a Dell or Apple device, a pair of Levis or running shoes, an electric guitar, a dinner set - whatever, then you're buying a product listed in trade stats as Chinese, Vietnamese, Mexican, Indonesian, etc. - even if the international payment is ultimately made to a US - based company.

Just mentioning this as it's not a simple world, but complex and intertwined. If the sh*t hits the fan, then the US economy is very exposed and dependent on international trade way beyond what may be pulled out of simple import/export stats. I expect NZ and other countries do the same, to a lesser degree ("NZ" probably seasonally sell Italian origin Zespri branded product in the US), but the amount of trade in goods sold to NZ by nominally US companies will vastly exceed the amount of trade that we do by way of NZ companies exporting to the US market.

Paul1977

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# 1710537 27-Jan-2017 10:44

tdgeek:

Paul1977:

tdgeek:

Paul1977: This is a Donald Trump thread, it just seems anti-Trump because there aren't a lot of nice things to say about him.

There isn't. But the anti stuff dilutes the ok stuff. He isn't Amin, Hitler, or any other dictator, he is just a mouth

All the bad stuff absolutely should outweigh any "ok" stuff.

You argument reminds me a t-shirt I once saw that said "What about all the good things Hitler did?"

While I am not of the opinion that Trump is, or will become, what Hitler ended up being; the basic premise applies - you can't use a small amount of good to forgive an enormous amount of bad.

I was trying to have a discussion on one particular topic, Mexican immigration issue, is there anything wrong with that? Well yes, as this is purely and simply a hate thread.

If its not possible to discuss any topics other than hatred, I won't bother joining the plethora of multi adjective anger posts. I guess next I will be labelled a Trump supporter.

Crazy stuff

@tdgeek I wasn't wishing to imply that you were a Trump supporter, and I do see where you are coming from to a certain extent. Perhaps a thread specifically about the pros and cons of Republican policies is in order?

I agree that this thread is overwhelmingly anti-Trump, I just personally believe that the negative attitudes and feelings are largely justified.

I'm not in possession of enough facts to contribute very much on the wall issue, but even if it is warranted I believe he has gone about it in the worst way possible.

Add to it that it is now coming out that apparently it will be paid for by an import tax that Americans will be paying, despite his campaign long promises that 'Mexico will pay for the wall'.

Illegal immigration from Mexico may, or may not, be as big a problem as he claims (I genuinely don't know). But any merit to the wall idea has been overwhelmed by his assertions of Mexican rapists and murderers, and all his isolationist propaganda.

In my opinion, even if increased border security by means of increased fencing or a wall is a good idea, he has completely tarnished it with his rhetoric and untruths.

darylblake

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# 1710543 27-Jan-2017 10:50

freitasm:

Trump says import tax will pay for wall.

Americans will end up paying 100% for something they don't need.

Precisely, they said if they spent 1/2 the amount on the cost of the wall they could easily solve many southern border immigration/drug smuggling problems.

Even if they do build the wall, how is it gonna stop drugs from being smuggled? Surely they are just gonna tunnel under it like they currently do. Its a massive waste of money. But it makes Trump look like he is doing something about the issue. In all reality it probably will never happen. He will be long out of office before the wall is even 1/2 complete and even if he gets another term.

Its important to watch Trumps approval rating. Its already low, hovering between 32%~42% support. Its definitely not going to go up from this wall idea because its going to take such a long time to do.

tdgeek

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# 1710548 27-Jan-2017 10:54

Paul1977:

@tdgeek I wasn't wishing to imply that you were a Trump supporter, and I do see where you are coming from to a certain extent. Perhaps a thread specifically about the pros and cons of Republican policies is in order?

I agree that this thread is overwhelmingly anti-Trump, I just personally believe that the negative attitudes and feelings are largely justified.

I'm not in possession of enough facts to contribute very much on the wall issue, but even if it is warranted I believe he has gone about it in the worst way possible.

Add to it that it is now coming out that apparently it will be paid for by an import tax that Americans will be paying, despite his campaign long promises that 'Mexico will pay for the wall'.

Illegal immigration from Mexico may, or may not, be as big a problem as he claims (I genuinely don't know). But any merit to the wall idea has been overwhelmed by his assertions of Mexican rapists and murderers, and all his isolationist propaganda.

In my opinion, even if increased border security by means of increased fencing or a wall is a good idea, he has completely tarnished it with his rhetoric and untruths.

I agree with what you say. But while its fine lambasting him, and said lambasting is all true. To me. the wider issues are the effects of his actions. That he goes about it in his own stupid ways, thats been done to death. But the blasting of him is so much wasted reading, we know all that. Fred (our most dedicated poster here :-) ) mentioned points on trade, that what I want to read. I already know his bluster and threats about trade.

Stan

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# 1710551 27-Jan-2017 10:55

I am really interested in the wall will be an interesting engineering project.

Rikkitic

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# 1710555 27-Jan-2017 10:57

I think (feel free to correct me if I am wrong) that historically, in general, immigration always turns out to be a good thing. Immigrants do not 'steal' jobs from local workers. They do not become criminals and rapists (naturally there are always individual exceptions). As a rule, they work hard because they are highly motivated. They do jobs that are necessary but locals don't want to do. They start small businesses and provide a level of service locals are unwilling to offer. They add colour to local culture and introduce new ideas and values that help keep society dynamic.

In this specific case, the economies of the southwestern states would probably collapse overnight if all the Mexican immigrants suddenly disappeared. Anti-immigrant sentiment is always based on fear and ignorance.

'Illegal' immigrants are almost always people seeking a better life for themselves and their children. They may not have the means or knowledge to go through legitimate channels. Or maybe they just don't want to wait around for a chance that might not materialise. Whatever the reason, their motivation is to make a better life for themselves. When did that become such a horrible thing? Thanks to politicians of the 18th and 19th centuries, the world today is organised into nation-states. Most are poor. A few are well-off. Someone who has the bad luck to be born in a poor one, has fewer chances in life and is told he is not allowed to cross the border into a richer one, even though it is a perfectly simple thing to do, and there are opportunities waiting for him there. That is the part that seems crazy to me.

I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney

tdgeek

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# 1710556 27-Jan-2017 11:00

Stan: I am really interested in the wall will be an interesting engineering project.

No idea, but its just a wall, I dont imagine it will be anything put of the ordinary. Read a thing on CNN, that where there are walls, there are also many gaps as the wall is not on the border, as they need to leave access for farmers to tend their land. Strange. Claytons Wall. Better idea is to erect wood towers as you see in national parks such as The Ozarks area, and have soem form of scanner between them, and manned. Harder to climb or dig under a scanner. Cheaper too

Paul1977

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# 1710558 27-Jan-2017 11:00

tdgeek:

Paul1977:

@tdgeek I wasn't wishing to imply that you were a Trump supporter, and I do see where you are coming from to a certain extent. Perhaps a thread specifically about the pros and cons of Republican policies is in order?

I agree that this thread is overwhelmingly anti-Trump, I just personally believe that the negative attitudes and feelings are largely justified.

I'm not in possession of enough facts to contribute very much on the wall issue, but even if it is warranted I believe he has gone about it in the worst way possible.

Add to it that it is now coming out that apparently it will be paid for by an import tax that Americans will be paying, despite his campaign long promises that 'Mexico will pay for the wall'.

Illegal immigration from Mexico may, or may not, be as big a problem as he claims (I genuinely don't know). But any merit to the wall idea has been overwhelmed by his assertions of Mexican rapists and murderers, and all his isolationist propaganda.

In my opinion, even if increased border security by means of increased fencing or a wall is a good idea, he has completely tarnished it with his rhetoric and untruths.

I agree with what you say. But while its fine lambasting him, and said lambasting is all true. To me. the wider issues are the effects of his actions. That he goes about it in his own stupid ways, thats been done to death. But the blasting of him is so much wasted reading, we know all that. Fred (our most dedicated poster here :-) ) mentioned points on trade, that what I want to read. I already know his bluster and threats about trade.

A new thread is probably a good idea then, perhaps with a specific disclaimer that it is about policy and not Trump as a President or person.

Fred99

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# 1710580 27-Jan-2017 11:25

Trump's already dramatically increased staffing levels for border control.

The wall is much more symbolic than it'll ever be utilitarian - but it stirs up support amongst the frightened masses. Trump's executive order on immigration includes an order to collate and publish on a weekly basis a list of "crimes committed by immigrants". One should probably assume that this means "illegal" immigrants rather than just "aliens", but that's not stated. Also "sympathisers" (presumably resistance at the individual state level) are to be exposed and shamed.

To better inform the public regarding the public safety threats associated with sanctuary jurisdictions, the Secretary shall utilize the Declined Detainer Outcome Report or its equivalent and, on a weekly basis, make public a comprehensive list of criminal actions committed by aliens and any jurisdiction that ignored or otherwise failed to honor any detainers with respect to such aliens.

That's not leaps and bounds from Hitler's policy to publish names and photos...

Fred99

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# 1710581 27-Jan-2017 11:30

tdgeek:

Well yes, as this is purely and simply a hate thread.

I'm sad to read that is your opinion.

I consider it to have become a "resistance to hatred" thread - which is much the reverse of what you seem to see.

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