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10326 posts

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  #1711246 29-Jan-2017 09:19
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gzt:
Fred99:

 

gzt: Trump has used an executive order to ban immigrants and refugees

 

 

 

He signed the executive order to ban refugees on International Holocaust Remembrance Day.

 


I presume you are referring to that other time the USA closed it's doors to people fleeing persecution and terror:

Atlantic:: Neiss: No, this is actually at a time, in 1939, when the Nazis weren’t engaged in the mass killings of Jews. This voyage was actually used as a massive propaganda tool by Hitler and the Nazis to say: “Look, nobody wants these Jews; these people are really undesirable.”

 

 

 

Indeed. 

 

Trump faces a legislative hurdle if he's going to implement either a refugee acceptance program or immigration program which selects based on religion. (ie he's suggested that he'll accept christian refugees from Syria - but not muslim.

 

It's unconstitutional.


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  #1711250 29-Jan-2017 09:59
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Handle9:
mattwnz:

 

It kind of makes you wish that Politics was a qualified career, with career politicians and you vote for the party, not the leader. Similar to NZ. Career Politicians are not really a good idea, and I think they shoul dbe limited in the number of terms they can stay in.



I literally have no idea what you are trying to say here.

 

How can you literally not have an idea? Is this opposed to figuratively not having an idea? Apart from that, this does seem to be a self-contradictory and somewhat confused statement. I think Handle9 is trying to say that our system of government is not bad, certainly compared to the US, that it might be even better if there was any kind of qualification required to be a politician (not a bad idea), and that politicians should be limited in the number of terms they can serve (also not a bad idea).

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


 
 
 
 


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  #1711251 29-Jan-2017 10:00
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Sideface:

 

driller2000:

 

Found these 2 articles interesting in the context of this topic:

 

https://hbr.org/2016/11/what-so-many-people-dont-get-about-the-u-s-working-class

 

<SNIP>

 

 

Thank you.

 

I read this, and now I understand why Trump won, and why Clinton was doomed to failure.

 

[DISCLOSURE]  I detest Trump.

 

 

Declining social mobility and increasing wealth disparity are strong indicators that meritocracy is not working.

 

NZ needs to beware Trumpism. 


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  #1711253 29-Jan-2017 10:07
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Geektastic:

 

Or probably neither, since a huge proportion of modern 'refugees' are nothing more than economic migrants by another name.

 

 

I do not understand this disparagement of 'economic refugees'. Europeans have been complaining about that one for decades. But if you happen to be born in a crappy country, through no choice of your own, why would you not want to try to improve your prospects and those of your children by moving to a better one? 

 

Nation-states are an artificial construct designed to benefit the haves and keep out the have-nots. I think they are an obscene idea, along with jingoistic patriotism and all the other nonsense so beloved by red-neck reactionaries.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  #1711266 29-Jan-2017 10:35
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driller2000:

 

Found these 2 articles interesting in the context of this topic:

 

https://hbr.org/2016/11/what-so-many-people-dont-get-about-the-u-s-working-class

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/01/27/in-venezuela-we-couldnt-stop-chavez-dont-make-the-same-mistakes-we-did/?postshare=7121485554646976&tid=ss_fb

 

 

 

 

Both of these articles are absolutely brilliant. Everyone should read them. Thank you so much for posting. 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  #1711290 29-Jan-2017 11:14
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Dratsab:

 

 

 

 tdgeek: I feel this is where you two and I disagree. I don't see an authoritarian elite state and historical bloodshed, nor Trump unleashing forces. Bark is worse than his bite. GOP will reign him in when the globe yawns and can't be a$$ed with him. Trade deals may be common, amongst everyone else. But I don't see the WW3-like argument. He is out of his league, he will get that when he tries to implement his silly ideas. 

 

As you say, we cannot see into the future, but that is my take on it. Over coming months, possible weeks, we will see more of a pattern. His executive orders to me are meaningless, its his action or inaction that will be more meaningful. Such as his jail her, then she has served us wonderfully for 30 years. 

 

You've previously described him as a mouth only and it's good to see an expansion on that. I do have to disagree with the lack of harm you [seem] see in this though. We live in a world where diplomacy rules and when that fails the daggers get drawn. Trump appears to have a level of diplomacy somewhere around zero. As per a previous post, the doomsday clock has been moved forward 30 seconds - not bad for a mouth. Fisher and Paykell are talking of moving US targeted manufacturing out of Mexico. They will keep the plant open for manufacturing targeted at other nations, but other companies who retract may not be as kind - not bad for a mouth.

 

His phone call to Taiwan, breaking with 40 years of foreign relations has deeply angered China who view Taiwan and their sovereignty over it as absolute. I have no doubt China will be prepared to go to war on this issue. Australia is now under pressure from the US to clarify it's position on Taiwan which will pit it against it's two largest trading partners. In the meantime Vietnam and Japan are feeling so nervous about this that Japan has promised US$1.4 billion to Vietnam to bolsters it's defences against China's advances in the area. In the meantime Trump is sucking up to Putin big time and saying nothing, in the meantime, about Crimea. In fact, based on previous statements he's made, I have a feeling he's set to recognise Russia's occupation as legitimate. This 'only a mouth' is doing an extraordinary job so far, and it's very early days yet.

 

 

 

---

 

I see how my post may imply I see a lack of harm. I see harm, but not the WW3, world is ending harm that some put forward.

 

Here is the harm I see. 

 

He will divide the US further, and issues such as China and Mexico will divide the globe away from the US. Trade, if he pushes his tariffs will see everyone only trade with the US if we have to, while seeking new partners elsewhere. As we speak China and Mexico have agreed to talk. The travellers who are now stuck at JFK is harm. Yes there will be harm, but not the big harm, and ultimately that will have him thrown out or the world will distance itself as much as is feasible. I'd prefer the US was not No.1, I prefer US, China, Europe all being big, but not No.1 If he does what he says he will do, and if he lasts 4 years, the world will see harm, but it will also work to being less US dependent, and that is a good thing in the longer term. They will be the big brother, that we talk to if we have to as we are not enemies, but we prefer to look the other way and spend time with our real friends.

 

 


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  #1711292 29-Jan-2017 11:26
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Rikkitic:

Handle9:
mattwnz:


It kind of makes you wish that Politics was a qualified career, with career politicians and you vote for the party, not the leader. Similar to NZ. Career Politicians are not really a good idea, and I think they shoul dbe limited in the number of terms they can stay in.



I literally have no idea what you are trying to say here.


How can you literally not have an idea? Is this opposed to figuratively not having an idea? Apart from that, this does seem to be a self-contradictory and somewhat confused statement. I think Handle9 is trying to say that our system of government is not bad, certainly compared to the US, that it might be even better if there was any kind of qualification required to be a politician (not a bad idea), and that politicians should be limited in the number of terms they can serve (also not a bad idea).


 



Nope. The post says that career politicians are a good idea then says that career politicians are bad idea. It's also not my post.

 
 
 
 


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  #1711295 29-Jan-2017 11:41
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Sorry, I typed the wrong name. I meant mattwnz of course. Sometimes these nested quotes get confusing. 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


789 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #1711296 29-Jan-2017 11:49
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Rikkitic:

 

driller2000:

 

Found these 2 articles interesting in the context of this topic:

 

https://hbr.org/2016/11/what-so-many-people-dont-get-about-the-u-s-working-class

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/01/27/in-venezuela-we-couldnt-stop-chavez-dont-make-the-same-mistakes-we-did/?postshare=7121485554646976&tid=ss_fb

 

 

 

 

Both of these articles are absolutely brilliant. Everyone should read them. Thank you so much for posting. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yep things were a lot clearer for me after reading these articles ie:

 

     

  1. Why Trump won;
  2. Why Hillary lost; and
  3. Most importantly how the US/World need to engage with Trump and more importantly those who voted for him, if we are to get them to help "us" to stop some of the worst stuff Trump intends to do.

 

 

 

PS: Both articles were via Dan Rather's - News and Guts FB group - https://www.facebook.com/newsandguts/ - highly recommended.

 

 


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  #1711299 29-Jan-2017 12:21
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driller2000:

Rikkitic:


driller2000:


Found these 2 articles interesting in the context of this topic:


https://hbr.org/2016/11/what-so-many-people-dont-get-about-the-u-s-working-class


https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/01/27/in-venezuela-we-couldnt-stop-chavez-dont-make-the-same-mistakes-we-did/?postshare=7121485554646976&tid=ss_fb


 



Both of these articles are absolutely brilliant. Everyone should read them. Thank you so much for posting. 


 



 


Yep things were a lot clearer for me after reading these articles ie:



  1. Why Trump won;

  2. Why Hillary lost; and

  3. Most importantly how the US/World need to engage with Trump and more importantly those who voted for him, if we are to get them to help "us" to stop some of the worst stuff Trump intends to do.


 


PS: Both articles were via Dan Rather's - News and Guts FB group - https://www.facebook.com/newsandguts/ - highly recommended.


 



We cannot engage with him, that's feeding the monkey. We need to dilute the dependency on the US as much as we can. Trade especially. With that comes more and better relationships between other countries.

789 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #1711301 29-Jan-2017 12:38
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tdgeek:

 

We cannot engage with him, that's feeding the monkey. We need to dilute the dependency on the US as much as we can. Trade especially. With that comes more and better relationships between other countries.

 

 

 

Disagree - largely because he will engage with the world whether we like it or not - and "we" will need to engage in one way or another given the impact his actions will have.

 

Agree that diluting dependency re Trade needs to be part of the response - but it will take time.

 

However Trumps presidency has far more impact than just Trade - with the environment/climate, global security, human rights and the role science has in informing debate and policy being top of mind for me.

 

 

 

 


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  #1711304 29-Jan-2017 13:11
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tdgeek:

We cannot engage with him, that's feeding the monkey. We need to dilute the dependency on the US as much as we can. Trade especially. With that comes more and better relationships between other countries.

 

I fully agree with that.

 

"Free trade" seems to work as a pathway to closer social/cultural links between countries and stimulates economic growth, and on the other trade can become weaponised/punitive.  In a fair world, then economic sanctions - which inevitably penalise the poor most of all - wouldn't be needed if rogue actions from the leaders of other nations Russia, Iran, N Korea etc could be dealt with effectively by other means. You'd probably get a pretty good idea about how well sanctions work by asking "joe sixpack" in Iran, N Korea, Russia, and more recently Mexico what they think about Uncle Sam.

 

Since WWII the USA seems to have not understood why not everybody loves them.


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  #1711311 29-Jan-2017 13:31
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Fred99:

 

tdgeek:

We cannot engage with him, that's feeding the monkey. We need to dilute the dependency on the US as much as we can. Trade especially. With that comes more and better relationships between other countries.

 

I fully agree with that.

 

"Free trade" seems to work as a pathway to closer social/cultural links between countries and stimulates economic growth, and on the other trade can become weaponised/punitive.  In a fair world, then economic sanctions - which inevitably penalise the poor most of all - wouldn't be needed if rogue actions from the leaders of other nations Russia, Iran, N Korea etc could be dealt with effectively by other means. You'd probably get a pretty good idea about how well sanctions work by asking "joe sixpack" in Iran, N Korea, Russia, and more recently Mexico what they think about Uncle Sam.

 

Since WWII the USA seems to have not understood why not everybody loves them.

 

 

The USA really does not care if countries and peoples love them, they want them to feel the need the USA. The world generally fulfils that desire and places the US as the pseudo leaders and protectors of the free world.





Mike
Change Management Consultant
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

He waka eke noa


10326 posts

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  #1711314 29-Jan-2017 13:39
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Rikkitic:

 

driller2000:

 

Found these 2 articles interesting in the context of this topic:

 

https://hbr.org/2016/11/what-so-many-people-dont-get-about-the-u-s-working-class

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/01/27/in-venezuela-we-couldnt-stop-chavez-dont-make-the-same-mistakes-we-did/?postshare=7121485554646976&tid=ss_fb

 

 

 

 

Both of these articles are absolutely brilliant. Everyone should read them. Thank you so much for posting. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes they are well-written - but with one serious criticism:

 

The first article was written by a rich white conservative law professor.  It focuses entirely on the "White Working Class", completely omits to mention the fact that if you're non-white, you're far more likely to be "working class" , that the reason that situation exists is because of long-term entrenched racism, that policy to break down race barriers to social mobility have been partially effective. Social mobility has increased in the black community over the past few decades - to the point that there's even been a black POTUS - that increased social mobility amongst blacks is visible and very much resented by the "WWC".
The article presents it as "class war" - when much of what's behind what just happened is actually race war - despite her denial of arguing that "blue collar resentment" is racism based. Are all "WWC" people expressing anger "racist"?  No - certainly not.  You'd need to have your head firmly jammed in a dark place to argue that amongst Trump's WWC core support, there wasn't horrific racism.

 

And that's part of the reason why the USA has Trump/Bannon and an alt:right led government - and not Bernie Sanders.


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  #1711316 29-Jan-2017 13:53
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Fred99:

 

gzt:
Fred99:

 

gzt: Trump has used an executive order to ban immigrants and refugees

 

 

 

He signed the executive order to ban refugees on International Holocaust Remembrance Day.

 


I presume you are referring to that other time the USA closed it's doors to people fleeing persecution and terror:

Atlantic:: Neiss: No, this is actually at a time, in 1939, when the Nazis weren’t engaged in the mass killings of Jews. This voyage was actually used as a massive propaganda tool by Hitler and the Nazis to say: “Look, nobody wants these Jews; these people are really undesirable.”

 

 

 

Indeed. 

 

Trump faces a legislative hurdle if he's going to implement either a refugee acceptance program or immigration program which selects based on religion. (ie he's suggested that he'll accept christian refugees from Syria - but not muslim.

 

It's unconstitutional.

 

 

And it's slowly being recognised as unconstitutional by the media:

 

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/01/28/trump_has_suspended_due_process_for_muslims.html

 

 

 

edit:

 

Even the VP of the USA knows it's unconstitutional


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