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MikeB4
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  #1712962 30-Jan-2017 20:18
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The seven nations currently banned have active ISIS and Al Qaeda units therefore it is not baseless, however there is a case to extend the ban to cover more nations until the US has a long term plan in place.

The world is changing and terrorism is real and by it nature extremely hard to predict and plan for so until the world gets on top of it things will be different and some innocents will be affected.

Now I am not supporting racism or bigotry I support efforts to increase security for everyone. I am from a military family and I am aware of the enormity of the problem.

gzt

gzt
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  #1712969 30-Jan-2017 20:52
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Fred99:

gzt:
Fred99:


Oh dear - I don't like the way Bill E is having partisan pressure put on him to "make a statement".  Listening to National Radio now.
IMO it would be futile having our PM slagging Trump, which would make no difference at all to the Trump administration, but also probably poison our chance to do something meaningful through an appropriate forum when an opportunity arises.  And if "what Bill E should do" becomes an issue argued on partisan lines, then Trump(ism) will start infiltrating NZ politics.
They (critics of Bill E) should back off - it's a serious global crisis short of war, cross-party support of whatever NZ takes as an "official position" will be needed.



So hypothetically, if a National Party government was in power 2003 and had sent invasion troops to Iraq as Mr Key advocated at that time, you would have advised all other NZ political parties to support that decision?

And back to reality, you would also have advised the Government of New Zealand to not make this statement both upholding the long standing relationship between New Zealand and the United States and also criticising the United States as the United States was about to begin an illegal and undeclared war in Iraq?


No and no.  It's not the time for our PM to be "slagging Trump" as it would be futile (or worse) - that's what I said.


Peter Dunnes letter was an embarassment (IMO).


I'm confident that Trump will act so awfully on foreign policy, that there would be bipartisan support from within NZ condemning his actions.  Thta's much better than a sh*t fight in NZ.


I have no idea what Dunne said. The Prime Minister did make a statement today:

NZHerald: Prime Minister Bill English says New Zealand "disagrees" with the new directives from US President Trump that discriminates among refugees and migrants according to which country they come from. Such a policy would not be implemented in New Zealand. But that is as far as he is willing to go and he said that that amounted to criticism of the policy.
[...]
English twice avoided saying whether he would raise the policy with Trump in any phone conversation he had with him. "We are yet to see if we will be speaking to him in the next few days but I would expect to raise any issue that has an impact on New Zealand in our interests."

Overall not bad and is probably the minimum required in this situation. He said a bit more in the link above. Not a bad result I think. It needed saying and it needed to be said from the top, and it will probably need to be said again.

The UK PM called it 'divisive and wrong'.

New Zealanders with dual citizenship with one of these 'banned countries' will be affected by this ban. I expect the Prime Minister to raise that issue with Trump as have the UK PM and the Australian PM.

 
 
 
 


freitasm
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  #1712975 30-Jan-2017 21:07
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MikeB4: The seven nations currently banned have active ISIS and Al Qaeda units therefore it is not baseless, however there is a case to extend the ban to cover more nations until the US has a long term plan in place.

The world is changing and terrorism is real and by it nature extremely hard to predict and plan for so until the world gets on top of it things will be different and some innocents will be affected.

Now I am not supporting racism or bigotry I support efforts to increase security for everyone. I am from a military family and I am aware of the enormity of the problem.

 

And yet Trump's Executive Order mention 9/11 three times. The attackers were from Saudi Arabia and Egypt - countries not included in the ban. 





 

 

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freitasm
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  #1712980 30-Jan-2017 21:28
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Not a bad conspiracy theory... Even possible (remember, purge of State Department, DHS not following judge's orders, sales of Russian oil interests, replacements on Security Council, etc): "Trial balloon for a coup"





 

 

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blakamin
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  #1712981 30-Jan-2017 21:30
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So where is this "GOP will keep him under control"?


Pumpedd
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  #1713018 30-Jan-2017 22:32
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It seems the target on Trumps head will be larger than that of Bin Laden.


Geektastic
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  #1713029 30-Jan-2017 23:11
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Fred99:

 

Geektastic:

 

It would be interesting to see the NZ reaction change if ISIS were to blow up Queen Street.....

 

 

And to Santa Claus if his elves started eating children.

 

You're trolling with a worn out rusty old hook.

 

 

 

 

Do you really believe NZ has some sort of magic shield that will prevent this from happening? It really doesn't - in fact it probably ranks as one of the least difficult countries to enter. As long as those chosen have no obvious criminal record and make sure they do not bring fruit with them, they will probably get in.

 

As life gets more difficult for terrorists to attack more obvious targets, they will look for other, easier ones. There is a real risk that one day, NZ will pop up as a target. Westerners are Westerners. The US Embassy here is as good a target as the one in Tanzania (98) or even Manila (Nov 16).

 

I saw several briefings when I worked in Parliament that prove that security forces here regard it as a real risk: you can pretend it is trolling if it makes you feel better, but it's a sad reality that stands an extremely good chance of eventuating one day.

 

As one who grew up amongst terrorist activity, I can assure you that your stance will without doubt alter if an attack takes place here.






 
 
 
 


Fred99
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  #1713037 30-Jan-2017 23:25
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blakamin:

 

So where is this "GOP will keep him under control"?

 

 

http://time.com/4652966/donald-trump-refugee-ban-executive-order-republicans/

 

It's a very messy situation, conspiracy theory is rife - for much of the "big stuff" (Russian involvement, Trump's personal conflicts of interest, the "Muslim" ban) there's perhaps a thought that there's "plausible deniability" which will endure - if they stick their necks out and happen to be wrong, then they're dead meat - from the GOP and their voter base. So some words - but very little action.

 

 

 

If you go to the front page of the Cato Institute website today, there's a list of articles absolutely slamming Trump's immigration policy, also articles arguing that  "Withdrawing from TPP Was a Senseless Act of Wanton Destruction".

 

The Koch Bros have fully turned on Trump. They are in control of 400 million that they're throwing at the mid-term elections, and it won't be going to pro-Trump candidates. If Trump's approval rating continues to slide, then the Democrats will also gain in a bigly way.

 

How Trump will behave when cornered will be interesting. As for "Trump 2020" - he has taken an unprecedented move to register his 2020 campaign already, so he can start fleecing suckers for donations straight away.


Pumpedd
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  #1713040 30-Jan-2017 23:36
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Fred99:

 

blakamin:

 

So where is this "GOP will keep him under control"?

 

 

http://time.com/4652966/donald-trump-refugee-ban-executive-order-republicans/

 

It's a very messy situation, conspiracy theory is rife - for much of the "big stuff" (Russian involvement, Trump's personal conflicts of interest, the "Muslim" ban) there's perhaps a thought that there's "plausible deniability" which will endure - if they stick their necks out and happen to be wrong, then they're dead meat - from the GOP and their voter base. So some words - but very little action.

 

 

 

If you go to the front page of the Cato Institute website today, there's a list of articles absolutely slamming Trump's immigration policy, also articles arguing that  "Withdrawing from TPP Was a Senseless Act of Wanton Destruction".

 

The Koch Bros have fully turned on Trump. They are in control of 400 million that they're throwing at the mid-term elections, and it won't be going to pro-Trump candidates. If Trump's approval rating continues to slide, then the Democrats will also gain in a bigly way.

 

How Trump will behave when cornered will be interesting. As for "Trump 2020" - he has taken an unprecedented move to register his 2020 campaign already, so he can start fleecing suckers for donations straight away.

 

 

He will be too old...senility will have really set in by then


Fred99
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  #1713041 30-Jan-2017 23:44
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Geektastic:

 

 

 

I saw several briefings when I worked in Parliament that prove that security forces here regard it as a real risk: you can pretend it is trolling if it makes you feel better, but it's a sad reality that stands an extremely good chance of eventuating one day.

 

 

And did they advise that NZ should ban immigrants / refugees based on religion, ban all visits by people of certain nationalities, compel authorities to produce lists for publication of "aliens" committing crimes, argue that we should torture political prisoners, target to kill the families and children of terrorists?

 

Unless there's global war (over which we'd have zero influence and no defense), NZ will be fine - if we keep to our principles as a secular state, support the UN and limit military action to our peacekeeping roles, and do not get involved with American crusades against an enemy mainly of their own making.

 

I'm more scared of an asteroid strike - and that is not very scared at all, and don't really appreciate scaremongering of the type you're importing from your past life in another place.


Fred99
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  #1713043 30-Jan-2017 23:52
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Pumpedd:

 

 

 

He will be too old...senility will have really set in by then

 

 

You'll be able to tell - if he's forgotten to trade the FLOTUS in for a new model between now and then.


tdgeek
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  #1713054 31-Jan-2017 07:14
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blakamin:

 

So where is this "GOP will keep him under control"?

 

 

Its been only 10 days. he hasn't done anything really bad yet, just shown his lack of class and dignity, and that him and his near cronies cannot manage the position and implementation of policy. You can bet that while he tweets about McCain and the other one as being weak, there is damage control going on. I can see more and more that at some point there will be an outward lack of confidence by the Republican party members, and the public, as to how bad he is making America look.


tdgeek
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  #1713055 31-Jan-2017 07:20
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Fred99:

 

blakamin:

 

So where is this "GOP will keep him under control"?

 

 

http://time.com/4652966/donald-trump-refugee-ban-executive-order-republicans/

 

It's a very messy situation, conspiracy theory is rife - for much of the "big stuff" (Russian involvement, Trump's personal conflicts of interest, the "Muslim" ban) there's perhaps a thought that there's "plausible deniability" which will endure - if they stick their necks out and happen to be wrong, then they're dead meat - from the GOP and their voter base. So some words - but very little action.

 

 

 

If you go to the front page of the Cato Institute website today, there's a list of articles absolutely slamming Trump's immigration policy, also articles arguing that  "Withdrawing from TPP Was a Senseless Act of Wanton Destruction".

 

The Koch Bros have fully turned on Trump. They are in control of 400 million that they're throwing at the mid-term elections, and it won't be going to pro-Trump candidates. If Trump's approval rating continues to slide, then the Democrats will also gain in a bigly way.

 

How Trump will behave when cornered will be interesting. As for "Trump 2020" - he has taken an unprecedented move to register his 2020 campaign already, so he can start fleecing suckers for donations straight away.

 

 

Agree. I dont think he will get to 2020. he has low popularity, thats expected. But he is showing his capability, as I think that the Muslim ban is the first piece of implemented action to date. Everyone in this thread could have done better. GOP will lose faith, voters will lose faith. I'm unsure how a no confidence vote/scenario plays out in the US system


Geektastic
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  #1713076 31-Jan-2017 08:43
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Fred99:

Geektastic:


 


I saw several briefings when I worked in Parliament that prove that security forces here regard it as a real risk: you can pretend it is trolling if it makes you feel better, but it's a sad reality that stands an extremely good chance of eventuating one day.



And did they advise that NZ should ban immigrants / refugees based on religion, ban all visits by people of certain nationalities, compel authorities to produce lists for publication of "aliens" committing crimes, argue that we should torture political prisoners, target to kill the families and children of terrorists?


Unless there's global war (over which we'd have zero influence and no defense), NZ will be fine - if we keep to our principles as a secular state, support the UN and limit military action to our peacekeeping roles, and do not get involved with American crusades against an enemy mainly of their own making.


I'm more scared of an asteroid strike - and that is not very scared at all, and don't really appreciate scaremongering of the type you're importing from your past life in another place.



It certainly wouldn't bother me if it had suggested that, and yes travel restrictions were on the list of possible responses.





frankv
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  #1713106 31-Jan-2017 09:42
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MikeB4:
Fred99:

 

MikeB4: Baseless security issues? Really?

 

Yes really.

 

No terrorist action has been carried out on US soil by a person from any of the 7 banned countries in over 40 years.

 



How does that remove the threat?
Are you saying the US should ignore the attacks carried around the globe?

 

What threat? I haven't seen any evidence of a threat from those 7 countries. Now, maybe Trump has evidence from the CIA or NSA or FBI or wherever which he's not sharing. But I doubt it... he intended doing this when he was still a candidate, and wouldn't have been privy to that information.

 

The US shouldn't ignore other attacks, but should take reasonable precautions based on the actual threat (if any), not draconian measures based on FUD.

 

 


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