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Fred99
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  #1747385 25-Mar-2017 08:53
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tdgeek:

 

 I Haven't followed this topic much lately, but it does seem from what I glanced at that Trumpcare is in doubt?

 

 

I believe that in the last few minutes - it's been declared dead.  The bill has been pulled without a vote.

 

So much for the "deal maker" and "winner" orange POTUS - and 7 or 8 years bluster from the GOP about repealing Obamacare.


tdgeek
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  #1747404 25-Mar-2017 09:18
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There we go, Trumpcare is pulled. Added to the other fails of his election key promises. best to do what he does best, talk and aggravate people and continue doing nothing of any real note as per his campaign


tdgeek
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  #1747405 25-Mar-2017 09:19
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Fred99:

 

tdgeek:

 

 I Haven't followed this topic much lately, but it does seem from what I glanced at that Trumpcare is in doubt?

 

 

I believe that in the last few minutes - it's been declared dead.  The bill has been pulled without a vote.

 

So much for the "deal maker" and "winner" orange POTUS - and 7 or 8 years bluster from the GOP about repealing Obamacare.

 

 

At least we know that will continue! He has that in spades. 


Sideface
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  #1747411 25-Mar-2017 09:27
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Trump Blames Democrats as Major Push to Repeal Health Law Fails  [New York Times]

"At 3:30 p.m., Mr. Ryan [Speaker Paul D. Ryan] called Republicans into a closed-door meeting to deliver the news that the bill would be pulled, with no plans to try again. The meeting lasted five minutes."

And a glimmer of insight:

“We have to do some soul-searching internally to determine whether or not we are even capable of functioning as a governing body,” said Representative Kevin Cramer, Republican of North Dakota. “If ‘no’ is your goal, it’s the easiest goal in the world to reach.”





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gzt

gzt
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  #1747412 25-Mar-2017 09:28
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Looks to me like the bill contained so many attacks on even pre-obamacare stuff like core Medicaid that even a large number of Republicans did not want to be seen with it.

alienwithin
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  #1747415 25-Mar-2017 09:39
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Fred99:

 

There are a couple of serious issues:

 

To quote Paul Ryan:

 

 “The idea of Obamacare is … that the people who are healthy pay for the people who are sick,” Ryan said. “It’s not working, and that’s why it’s in a death spiral.”

 

That's basically an admission that he has no clue at all how insurance works. Though he probably does know how insurance works, but it doesn't suit his cultist libertarian leanings.

 

Another issue is summed up by a photo:

 

 

A pack of wealthy, middle-aged, conservative men - in a huddle with christian fundamentalist VP, thrashing out a deal that will include deliberately restricting/discriminating against women's access to women's healthcare.

 

 

 

 

when you need to pass a bill you look for votes, that is what this photo shows, a meeting with a small group called thee freedom caucus.  How is this any differetn from John Key calling the maori party in and talking soley to them when needing votes?  No doubt there are a few groups that are being negoiated with to try and get their votes, just the media likes to jump on the picture and turn it into a huge story, just like the media always did in NZ with Key.  ever thought.  surely you understand if you need to pass a bill and there is a group of 30 people who are not wanting to vote for it you call them in and negoiate with them, which is happening in this photo.


tdgeek
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  #1747416 25-Mar-2017 09:41
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Certainly a win for checks and balances that give the US Govt stability. IMHO it is stable. Aside from stupid talk, the Govt is stable, in that the POTUS cannot just do what he likes. And to take this a step further, its not about Republicans vs Democrats, its about Trump vs Republicans. That is totally, totally bizarre. It will become increasingly normal to not back the leader of your party, another totally bizarre situation. Before long, it will dawn on many over there that he is ineffective, cannot do anything constructive, and cannot lead. The proof is in the pudding, and while many saw that early on, its been continually proven. Going to be an eventful, but quiet next 3.5 years


alienwithin
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  #1747417 25-Mar-2017 09:43
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joker97:

 

 

 

does pharmac (ie taxpayers) subsidise the US 500 for the epipen?

 

 

 

 

nope it's not funded at all by pharmac


tdgeek
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  #1747420 25-Mar-2017 09:50
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@alienwithin  when you need to pass a bill you look for votes, that is what this photo shows, a meeting with a small group called thee freedom caucus.  How is this any differetn from John Key calling the maori party in and talking soley to them when needing votes?  No doubt there are a few groups that are being negoiated with to try and get their votes, just the media likes to jump on the picture and turn it into a huge story, just like the media always did in NZ with Key.  ever thought.  surely you understand if you need to pass a bill and there is a group of 30 people who are not wanting to vote for it you call them in and negoiate with them, which is happening in this photo.

 

 

 

I think you missed Freds point.

 

Would John Key have to seek support for a law that he put forward? No, its his party and its been discussed and reviewed by his party. Its a good law, supported by their party theme, and its planned and reviewed. Trump cant do any of that, so he doesnt get the chance to vote as in GOP and Democrats as he cant even get his own party to support it. The US seems to have three parties, GOP, Democrats and Trump. 

 

But you cannot compare Key to Trump, or any other democracy leader with Trump, he isn't normal. But his party is thank god. 

 

 


alienwithin
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  #1747421 25-Mar-2017 09:50
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tdgeek:

 

Certainly a win for checks and balances that give the US Govt stability. IMHO it is stable. Aside from stupid talk, the Govt is stable, in that the POTUS cannot just do what he likes. And to take this a step further, its not about Republicans vs Democrats, its about Trump vs Republicans. That is totally, totally bizarre. It will become increasingly normal to not back the leader of your party, another totally bizarre situation. Before long, it will dawn on many over there that he is ineffective, cannot do anything constructive, and cannot lead. The proof is in the pudding, and while many saw that early on, its been continually proven. Going to be an eventful, but quiet next 3.5 years

 

 

 

 

i think what we are seeing is more than that, I think it is also the intelligence agencies vs trump.  I believe one of two things will happen.  he will turn out to actually be a good president or he will be killed


alienwithin
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  #1747422 25-Mar-2017 09:53
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tdgeek:

 

@alienwithin  when you need to pass a bill you look for votes, that is what this photo shows, a meeting with a small group called thee freedom caucus.  How is this any differetn from John Key calling the maori party in and talking soley to them when needing votes?  No doubt there are a few groups that are being negoiated with to try and get their votes, just the media likes to jump on the picture and turn it into a huge story, just like the media always did in NZ with Key.  ever thought.  surely you understand if you need to pass a bill and there is a group of 30 people who are not wanting to vote for it you call them in and negoiate with them, which is happening in this photo.

 

 

 

I think you missed Freds point.

 

Would John Key have to seek support for a law that he put forward? No, its his party and its been discussed and reviewed by his party. Its a good law, supported by their party theme, and its planned and reviewed. Trump cant do any of that, so he doesnt get the chance to vote as in GOP and Democrats as he cant even get his own party to support it. The US seems to have three parties, GOP, Democrats and Trump. 

 

But you cannot compare Key to Trump, or any other democracy leader with Trump, he isn't normal. But his party is thank god. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

actually Yes, John Key did have to seek support numerous times to get bills passed, and he did a number of times have to deal with the maori party who in turn got to put forward what they wanted included in the bill to support it.    And in america I can't think of a recent president the past few decades who didn't have to negoiate with their own party to get support, because unlike NZ their politicans are always after what they can get for supporting a bill, and what their district can get.  it doesn't matter what side of the house you are on in the US that always happens, a US president has int he past few decades had to always negoiate with his own party to get support for their bills.


tdgeek
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  #1747426 25-Mar-2017 09:58
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alienwithin:

 

tdgeek:

 

Certainly a win for checks and balances that give the US Govt stability. IMHO it is stable. Aside from stupid talk, the Govt is stable, in that the POTUS cannot just do what he likes. And to take this a step further, its not about Republicans vs Democrats, its about Trump vs Republicans. That is totally, totally bizarre. It will become increasingly normal to not back the leader of your party, another totally bizarre situation. Before long, it will dawn on many over there that he is ineffective, cannot do anything constructive, and cannot lead. The proof is in the pudding, and while many saw that early on, its been continually proven. Going to be an eventful, but quiet next 3.5 years

 

 

 

 

i think what we are seeing is more than that, I think it is also the intelligence agencies vs trump.  I believe one of two things will happen.  he will turn out to actually be a good president or he will be killed

 

 

The bans, the wall, healthcare, that is not an issue caused by intelligence agencies. It is caused by the fact that he has no clue. He wont turn out to be a good POTUS, that is certain.

 

He isn't doing anything. If he was and turning the world and the US upside down, your theory may be valid. He is orchestrating his early exit, unknowingly. Maybe he will give up in a year, maybe he will be targeted by GOP so that he has extremely low support in the GOP, so that he effectively cannot govern. Or he gets given an "honourable early retirement" 

 

The intelligence community could get stuff on the table that is impeachable. It doesnt really matter how (apart from your assassination theory) , as long as he is out sooner than later. Your theory would also cause a lot of issues, but Trump is giving plenty of evidence to support his ousting one day I feel. Best leave to there to unfold naturally. If he is ousted, that will be a win for the US Govt and the people, in terse of being democratic, the peoples choice


Fred99
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  #1747427 25-Mar-2017 10:00
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alienwithin:

 

I think it is also the intelligence agencies vs trump.  I believe one of two things will happen.  he will turn out to actually be a good president or he will be killed

 

 

 

 

AKA "Deep State Conspiracy Theory".

 

The sites you're reading that crap on didn't have that view when Comey dropped his bombshell about HRC just before the election.

 

 

 

 


tdgeek
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  #1747429 25-Mar-2017 10:04
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alienwithin:

 

tdgeek:

 

@alienwithin  when you need to pass a bill you look for votes, that is what this photo shows, a meeting with a small group called thee freedom caucus.  How is this any differetn from John Key calling the maori party in and talking soley to them when needing votes?  No doubt there are a few groups that are being negoiated with to try and get their votes, just the media likes to jump on the picture and turn it into a huge story, just like the media always did in NZ with Key.  ever thought.  surely you understand if you need to pass a bill and there is a group of 30 people who are not wanting to vote for it you call them in and negoiate with them, which is happening in this photo.

 

 

 

I think you missed Freds point.

 

Would John Key have to seek support for a law that he put forward? No, its his party and its been discussed and reviewed by his party. Its a good law, supported by their party theme, and its planned and reviewed. Trump cant do any of that, so he doesnt get the chance to vote as in GOP and Democrats as he cant even get his own party to support it. The US seems to have three parties, GOP, Democrats and Trump. 

 

But you cannot compare Key to Trump, or any other democracy leader with Trump, he isn't normal. But his party is thank god. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

actually Yes, John Key did have to seek support numerous times to get bills passed, and he did a number of times have to deal with the maori party who in turn got to put forward what they wanted included in the bill to support it.    And in america I can't think of a recent president the past few decades who didn't have to negoiate with their own party to get support, because unlike NZ their politicans are always after what they can get for supporting a bill, and what their district can get.  it doesn't matter what side of the house you are on in the US that always happens, a US president has int he past few decades had to always negoiate with his own party to get support for their bills.

 

 

Disagree. Unless your taking support extremely literally. When he or anyone else here passes a bill, it gets discussed on and on, before going to readings. Parties support themselves. he dosnt go round the Beehive drumming up support for his laws, thats ridiculous. Over time  his or their law is discussed, refined, debated, before it gets anywhere near a vote. 

 

Maori party is not relevant thats due to him not having a majority Govt, so obviously he has to seek support from others parties in the coalition as they do not tow the National line or beliefs. Thats nit relevant when discussing the US as they don't have a coalition. And they, as you say, seek their own agenda, we dont have that here, we have a supportive party system.


Bung
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  #1747441 25-Mar-2017 10:34
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tdgeek:

@alienwithin  when you need to pass a bill you look for votes, that is what this photo shows, a meeting with a small group called thee freedom caucus.  How is this any differetn from John Key calling the maori party in and talking soley to them when needing votes?  No doubt there are a few groups that are being negoiated with to try and get their votes, just the media likes to jump on the picture and turn it into a huge story, just like the media always did in NZ with Key.  ever thought.  surely you understand if you need to pass a bill and there is a group of 30 people who are not wanting to vote for it you call them in and negoiate with them, which is happening in this photo.



What's not shown in the photo is the other more moderate "Tuesday Group" of Republicans who think the bill goes too far. More than 22 votes against the bill from either group would sink it.

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