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  # 1771595 27-Apr-2017 22:06
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darylblake:

Do any of you listen to "the huddle" on newstalk ZB's drive show. Its around about 5:30pm. anyway Matthew Hooton described Trump perfectly. Saying he has been and abyssal president. He has 180'd on a large chunk of his campaign promises. Deep down, I think he wants to do a good job. But based on this he is destined to be a single term president. The GOP should replace him. The democrats are a disaster of a mess, a bit like the Australian and NZ labor parties. When they learn they are too far to the left they will get in again.


Elections are won by those that appear to the centre.


 



I think that's a fair assessment. He is not generating much more than entertainment, then he will be gone. Someone will write a book, then he will be forgotten, occasionally remembered as a flop and a glitch in the 2010's.

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  # 1771596 27-Apr-2017 22:09
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tdgeek:
Fred99:

 

tdgeek:

 

 

 

gzt: 

There were many opportunities for USA to halt or vastly slow the pace of nuclear weapons development in North Korea. Instead USA prioritised the slow destruction of the DPRK. That strategy appears to have led to vastly increased misery and hunger in NK and has not slowed weapons development. The strategy is essentially a failure.

You are advocating a continuation of this failed strategy, which can only cause more hardship for ordinary North Koreans. What is the point of that?

 

 

 



You are assuming that your opinion is accurate. Should the US and remember this is a West issue, have waltzed in andgold them to shut down the nuclear plants? Or say if you stop we will give you food and oil?, NK is a vicious and ruthless dictatorship who use fear on their people and threats to the world. Talking has gone on before accompanied by reneging. You can only go so far with game players. China is the only one who can talk.

You are saying that this is the fault of the US and more of less implying it was a solvable problem and that the US has made him what he is, and his Dad and his Dad.

 

 

 

 

 

 

DPRK was a signatory to the nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty.

 

 

 

They pulled out in 2003, blaming "US aggression".

 

 

 

This was at the time George W Bush invaded Iraq, which was IMO "US aggression".

 

 

 

I think they probably do expect an attack from the USA. 

 

 

 

As for DPRK being a ruthless dictatorship - that shouldn't be a problem for the USA, they've supported and interfered in other countries to put ruthless dictatorships in place.  If you're suggesting that the part of the reason the US may act is to relieve the population of DPRK from tyranny - you're dreaming.  

 



No, I'm not dreaming. The USA won't act. 

Russia supports ruthless dictators too, they support Syria. The West supports NK, as does the US by letting them play games with us.

As to believing that NK signed the non proliferation with genuine intent, that's a hard one to believe, very hard.

 

 

 

Agree USA wont do SFA unless they are forced.

 

Russia supports ruthless dictators too - True. If it is in their interest.

 

They support Syria - This middle east conflict is so complicated.

 

The West supports NK - What are you smoking? Throughout this entire thread I have agreed with nearly everything you said. But IMO,  KJU is off his chopper. He was educated in Switzerland, I don't think hes a moron, the geopolitics of nuclear weapons indicate that he has cards to play. If he makes the wrong moves now the USA, Japan and South Korea will bomb the s**t out of him, so he is treading very carefully.

 

As to believing that NK signed the non proliferation with genuine intent, that's a hard one to believe, very hard. - Have to agree.

 

 

 

When it comes to NK they look at what happened to Gadafi, to Sadam, and to a whole heap of other dictators, they have learned from this, and are trying to weasel their way into a position of power, and they are getting there. The North Korea situation is a genuine mess up by the Bush and Obama Administrations, along with the UN. They should of come down a lot harder diplomatically. A lot earlier. The sanctions should have been extremely strict. And as soon as NK walked away from negotiating they should have got china to cut the oil flow.

 

Now we are stuck with a situation where Seoul may face a barrage of artillery, and the possibility of Nuclear weapons actually being used. China doesnt like it, Japan doesnt like it, NK doesnt like it the USA sure as hell don't like it, and neither do Russia. 

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  # 1771703 28-Apr-2017 10:09
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@darylblake

By supporting NK, this is how I see it. The issue has been with us 60 years. It's not a Trump issue, Bush, Obama, etc, it's all of us for that long. It's been a timid response, which is a good thing, so as to keep things calm. But that, like many issues with them, has seen NK use and abuse that. Yes he is smart. He has scared his people into believing that the US is waiting to attack. These people know little or nothing of the West, they are scared, brainwashed. They have to have x amount of pictures of him in most rooms. There are people listening for dissenters, who will then disappear. It's shocking.and it's therefore totally unreliable.p to work with that mindset.

Some have said we should have done things different, talked, etc, thats gone on for a long time, and NK have abused that. Get China to help? Never been an option, till very recently. Early on they were no threat, and gradually that's gone from occasional shots at the DMZ to what we have now. KJU has to have unbridled control. He can't be friendly to anyone, otherwise his people will see the real world, and when that leaks he is gone.

So, what's the way out? It needs to satisfy KJU, so it needs to allow him to control his people. He needs to be told to accept that no one is bothered with invading his country. China can take an official stance on being his ally as recognized by the UN. THe west agrees not to invade. Nukes are shut down, an acceptable military capability is allowed. US heavily reduces its presence in SEA. For that, and after a test period, sanctions begin to be removed, so that NK has no sanctions against them

Now, this has happened before, agreements, and so on, but if anything is gong to change, it won't be invasion, nor past talks. The only reason why this can work now is one word. China. That's the only country that KJU will talk to, and I mean talk, not pretend to talk then reneg. China has to convince them that they won't be invaded, and if there were, china has their back 110%.

To achieve his ruthless and vicious control, he then has the option to not use fake threats of invasion, but to develope the economy "despite the evil West" to maintain the brainwash, and hence his control.

It's a delicate issue of psychology, not to push anyone into anything, but to maintain the stance and not back down. If China didn't exist I imagine the US would have invaded. China has moved from the "oop, better not upset big China". to where China is the calmer of both sides, and can yak to KJU. The broker, and far more than before.

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  # 1771740 28-Apr-2017 10:35
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Somehow KJU would have to enter a deal where he doesn't lose face to his subjects.

 

While the person (KJU) may or may not be paranoid delusional, in terms of his "government" it certainly is, and needs to be treated as such.

 

With good reason too - as if he was under the impression that Japan, USA, Russia, South Korea, and now China are "ganging up on DPRK", then he'd be 100% correct. That there's good reason to exert pressure - and to not trust any commitments made by DPRK is a separate issue.  Long history / chronology of failure here.

 

We'll see what happens when a more moderate President is in place in South Korea (hopefully in a few weeks).

 

Trump doesn't have control of the situation - US generals and admirals (and politicians) are talking and presenting their military analysis and of course military solution, but the solution has to be diplomatic (or war), and discussing military strategy is not wise at this point in time.  Yeah - some of the Korean missiles were probably cardboard, a preemptive strike could take out their nuclear programme (be nice to know where their existing plutonium stocks and assembled warheads are first though) similar with chemical weapons stockpiles, and Trump is now a great friend of PRC (yeah - right).

 

IMO the rush job to get THAAD operational just before the S Korean elections was a mistake - though that may backfire on the US as there's considerable anti-US sentiment in S Korea, doing that probably exacerbated it.

 

 


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  # 1772079 28-Apr-2017 18:00
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Fred99:

Somehow KJU would have to enter a deal where he doesn't lose face to his subjects.


While the person (KJU) may or may not be paranoid delusional, in terms of his "government" it certainly is, and needs to be treated as such.


With good reason too - as if he was under the impression that Japan, USA, Russia, South Korea, and now China are "ganging up on DPRK", then he'd be 100% correct. That there's good reason to exert pressure - and to not trust any commitments made by DPRK is a separate issue.  Long history / chronology of failure here.


We'll see what happens when a more moderate President is in place in South Korea (hopefully in a few weeks).


Trump doesn't have control of the situation - US generals and admirals (and politicians) are talking and presenting their military analysis and of course military solution, but the solution has to be diplomatic (or war), and discussing military strategy is not wise at this point in time.  Yeah - some of the Korean missiles were probably cardboard, a preemptive strike could take out their nuclear programme (be nice to know where their existing plutonium stocks and assembled warheads are first though) similar with chemical weapons stockpiles, and Trump is now a great friend of PRC (yeah - right).


IMO the rush job to get THAAD operational just before the S Korean elections was a mistake - though that may backfire on the US as there's considerable anti-US sentiment in S Korea, doing that probably exacerbated it.


 



I mostly agree, if KJU can save face that does open doors. But I don't see how the sentiment about THAAD is. It's a defence option and in the face if NK aggression options. Should attack missiles be moved in that's a real issue (even then it's only equalling NK aggression) but it's defence.

And nothing to do with Trump , I'd see the same US response for any President. And the response was mild and expected. You can't let NK do things and just sit there.

But your right re the SK change of office, hopefully they can talk with China. The west needs to keep out, and let the SEA nations manage it. West needs to watch and agree or disagree.

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  # 1772127 28-Apr-2017 20:12
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The problem with THAAD is that in theory - or perhaps not theory but "common knowledge", THAAD neutralises DPRK's deterrent.

 

So all KJU's bluster about razing everybody else to the ground - if DPRK was to be attacked - becomes questionable.  Questioble - but of course they can still rain fire on Seoul with artillery and however many SRBMs they can get past ABM systems.

 

No - I don't think other POTUS may have behaved the same.  THAAD was certainly set up under the Obama administration, but when a more conservative South Korean regime wanted it.  Now with a change of sentiment toward more liberal politics in SK, then there's a mad rush by the USA to get THAAD in place, before an election, when SK may not actually want it any more.

 

The US administration know that it will annoy the crap out of both China, and it's going to be another obstacle to negotiation with DPRK, a "bottom line" - "get rid of THAAL - and then we'll talk".

 

Now Trump's realised that the system cost him a billion or so, when his mind is on how the hell he's going to fund massive tax cuts to himself and friends.  So he's putting acid on SK to pay for THAAL - which is unporoven and potentially useless to SK if NK actually attacked.

 

Trumps a lunatic moron - I hope SK tells him to stick his ABM missile system where it belongs

 

 


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  # 1772194 28-Apr-2017 22:48
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"I loved my previous life. I had so many things going," Trump told Reuters in an interview. "This is more work than in my previous life. I thought it would be easier."

 

 

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  # 1772196 28-Apr-2017 22:53
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Fred99:

 

The problem with THAAD is that in theory - or perhaps not theory but "common knowledge", THAAD neutralises DPRK's deterrent.

 

So all KJU's bluster about razing everybody else to the ground - if DPRK was to be attacked - becomes questionable.  Questioble - but of course they can still rain fire on Seoul with artillery and however many SRBMs they can get past ABM systems.

 

No - I don't think other POTUS may have behaved the same.  THAAD was certainly set up under the Obama administration, but when a more conservative South Korean regime wanted it.  Now with a change of sentiment toward more liberal politics in SK, then there's a mad rush by the USA to get THAAD in place, before an election, when SK may not actually want it any more.

 

The US administration know that it will annoy the crap out of both China, and it's going to be another obstacle to negotiation with DPRK, a "bottom line" - "get rid of THAAL - and then we'll talk".

 

Now Trump's realised that the system cost him a billion or so, when his mind is on how the hell he's going to fund massive tax cuts to himself and friends.  So he's putting acid on SK to pay for THAAL - which is unporoven and potentially useless to SK if NK actually attacked.

 

Trumps a lunatic moron - I hope SK tells him to stick his ABM missile system where it belongs

 

 

 

SK won't pay for THAAD. They don't really want it there. They were told by the USA that it is getting installed period. Trump saying some nonsense like SK is gonna pay for it is rubbish. If the USA ever pack it up and take it away, then will SK ask for their money back? Its silly. 

 

As I said back on page 80 or something. Trump will get bored of being in the white house. He HAS To be the big boy now. He has people prodding him in all sorts of directions. Before Trump was the boss. He could play golf all day if he wanted. Hes a 70 year old man, he probably gets pretty tired, hes used to being rich and doing whatever he wants. Now he actually has a job. He might step aside for Pence at some point. 

 

 


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  # 1772200 28-Apr-2017 23:10
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Fred99:

 

"I loved my previous life. I had so many things going," Trump told Reuters in an interview. "This is more work than in my previous life. I thought it would be easier."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and he still only really works 5 days/week


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  # 1772205 28-Apr-2017 23:32
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Fred99:

The problem with THAAD is that in theory - or perhaps not theory but "common knowledge", THAAD neutralises DPRK's deterrent.


So all KJU's bluster about razing everybody else to the ground - if DPRK was to be attacked - becomes questionable.  Questioble - but of course they can still rain fire on Seoul with artillery and however many SRBMs they can get past ABM systems.


No - I don't think other POTUS may have behaved the same.  THAAD was certainly set up under the Obama administration, but when a more conservative South Korean regime wanted it.  Now with a change of sentiment toward more liberal politics in SK, then there's a mad rush by the USA to get THAAD in place, before an election, when SK may not actually want it any more.


The US administration know that it will annoy the crap out of both China, and it's going to be another obstacle to negotiation with DPRK, a "bottom line" - "get rid of THAAL - and then we'll talk".


Now Trump's realised that the system cost him a billion or so, when his mind is on how the hell he's going to fund massive tax cuts to himself and friends.  So he's putting acid on SK to pay for THAAL - which is unporoven and potentially useless to SK if NK actually attacked.


Trumps a lunatic moron - I hope SK tells him to stick his ABM missile system where it belongs


 



This is a 60 year old problem. The nuclear side of it has been increasing, as has missile ranges, all well before Trump.

NK says their banned nuclear tests, missiles flown into Japanese waters is defence. West says THAAD is defence. I know what I believe is reasonable and what is not. And reasonable after all these agreements and reneging that it comes down to get rid of THAAD and let's talk? It should be get rid of nukes and let's talk. But NK won't do that, so everyone else has to let NK control this, and we all cower to them. This attitude doesn't make it easier, it let's him know that we suck, so do what you want. It has worked well to now.

The US often recieves criticism and justifiably so, but IMHO it is not applicable here when dealing with a madman, who may as well be running a country with no population, given what he does to help them. Unless your a soldier


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  # 1772208 29-Apr-2017 00:03
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Fred99:

 

"I loved my previous life. I had so many things going," Trump told Reuters in an interview. "This is more work than in my previous life. I thought it would be easier."

 

 

 

 

Translated from Golden Shower speak:

 

"I thought being the leader of a country with 300 million unhappy non-billionaires would be easier than answering to my daughter, because I thought, at least, I could tell them what to do".

 

The tripper has no idea. And doesn't bother listening to anyone that does.


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  # 1772210 29-Apr-2017 00:12
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AFAIK DPRK hasn't complained about THAAD - so you're wrong there.
DPRK's "illegal" nuclear tests aren't "illegal", as they (and India and Pakistan) aren't signatories to the 1996 CTBT, and each have conducted tests since then.

 

I'm not arguing that DPRK is being "reasonable" - they're dangerous nuts.

 

But I'm hopeful that views such as yours don't prevail, as you've spent a few pages basically arguing that all hope is lost for negotiation, so acts of war are needed.

 

 


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  # 1772211 29-Apr-2017 00:21
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Pumpedd:

 

Fred99:

 

"I loved my previous life. I had so many things going," Trump told Reuters in an interview. "This is more work than in my previous life. I thought it would be easier."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and he still only really works 5 days/week

 

 

between 10pm-3am





Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


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  # 1772287 29-Apr-2017 08:56
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Fred99:

AFAIK DPRK hasn't complained about THAAD - so you're wrong there.
DPRK's "illegal" nuclear tests aren't "illegal", as they (and India and Pakistan) aren't signatories to the 1996 CTBT, and each have conducted tests since then.


I'm not arguing that DPRK is being "reasonable" - they're dangerous nuts.


But I'm hopeful that views such as yours don't prevail, as you've spent a few pages basically arguing that all hope is lost for negotiation, so acts of war are needed.


 



Where did I say NK complained about THAAD?

WHere did I say the nuclear tests were illegal? many pages ago? If I did, you know what I mean. Banned, and agreed by them to not test, or has there never been any discussion or agreement in exchange for reduced sanctions?

I have never said or implied that all hope is lost and that war is needed. Your not reading everything, or your extreme hate of Trump is clouding things. Nothing has changed for this issue, except that nuclear is more an issue than before. I have stated that talks never succeeded, that's a fact. I have mentioned china is the only hope. I have also stated that US won't invade. I state now that NK will not invade. Should China not step up, nothing will change. NK will act dumb, US will stay close to hand. The recent times are standard practice,nothing new.NK will continue to taunt, US will continue to respond mildly and be accused of taunting, that's all that will happen.Trump will continue to not be mentioned by me as that's not relevant.


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  # 1772445 29-Apr-2017 14:15
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVUZGK3EDEM

Seth Meyers: "Something tell me this isn't the first time Trumps had to pull out because of soft wood.

Imitating Donald Trump: 'I'm sorry NAFTA. It hasn't happened before.'

[Looking down] 'Come on Donald Junior... Sorry, Come on stumpage.'"

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