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  #2020179 22-May-2018 09:01
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Guys, come on ... It's a miracle this thread hasn't been locked already.





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  #2020182 22-May-2018 09:14
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SaltyNZ:

 

Guys, come on ... It's a miracle this thread hasn't been locked already.

 

 

You are right 

 

Back on topic 

 

There seems to be some debate on the Mueller's investigation of the Trump campaign and Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election might end on September 1.

 


 
 
 
 


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  #2020195 22-May-2018 09:32
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Everyone needs to be be careful about assuming someone who, in principal, agrees with some of the Trump administrations policies is a Trump supporter - or share all of his ideological beliefs.

 

The world is not black and white (no racial pun intended). It is possible to believe in the need for stronger border control and not be racist or a Trump supporter. It is even possible to believe the a wall is a good way to enact stronger border security and not be a racist.

 

I personally think the wall is a terrible idea, but I don't believe that everyone who thinks it's a good idea is racist.

 

EDIT: I'll even go so far as to say that there are people who label themselves as Trump supporters who are not racists, and don't support everything he does and says.


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  #2020204 22-May-2018 09:40
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Paul1977:

 

Everyone needs to be be careful about assuming someone who, in principal, agrees with some of the Trump administrations policies is a Trump supporter - or share all of his ideological beliefs.

 

The world is not black and white (no racial pun intended). It is possible to believe in the need for stronger border control and not be racist or a Trump supporter. It is even possible to believe the a wall is a good way to enact stronger border security and not be a racist.

 

I personally think the wall is a terrible idea, but I don't believe that everyone who thinks it's a good idea is racist.

 

EDIT: I'll even go so far as to say that there are people who label themselves as Trump supporters who are not racists, and don't support everything he does and says.

 

 

I agree 100%

 

Statistically speaking a reasonable amount of people who voted for Trump also voted for Obama not that it means anything for the individual but something to think about..


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  #2020210 22-May-2018 09:45
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It is worth asking what problem the wall is supposed to solve. What damage are illegal immigrants from Mexico doing? Information I have seen seems to suggest that most are families looking for a better life. They tend to settle in and do pretty much what other people do. There seems to be a lot of demand for them as cheap labour willing to work at menial jobs.

 

Trump has stated (without any evidence whatsoever) that many are ‘drug dealers and rapists’ and that is why his wall is needed to keep them out. That is unquestionably a pure racist sentiment. People who blindly agree with this proposition are also behaving in a racist manner. They are passing sweeping judgements on a whole category of people based entirely on an unsubstantiated assumption. That is the very definition of racism.





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  #2020218 22-May-2018 10:04
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Rikkitic:

 

It is worth asking what problem the wall is supposed to solve. What damage are illegal immigrants from Mexico doing? Information I have seen seems to suggest that most are families looking for a better life. They tend to settle in and do pretty much what other people do. There seems to be a lot of demand for them as cheap labour willing to work at menial jobs.

 

Trump has stated (without any evidence whatsoever) that many are ‘drug dealers and rapists’ and that is why his wall is needed to keep them out. That is unquestionably a pure racist sentiment. People who blindly agree with this proposition are also behaving in a racist manner. They are passing sweeping judgements on a whole category of people based entirely on an unsubstantiated assumption. That is the very definition of racism.

 

Playing Devil's advocate, they are still illegal immigrants.

 

I believe the question needs to be expanded into two questions. What problem is increased border security supposed to solve? And is a wall the best way to achieve this?


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  #2020221 22-May-2018 10:12
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Paul1977:

 

What problem is increased border security supposed to solve?

 

 

 

 

Filthy foreigners stealing our jobsthe jobs we don't want to do anyway.

 

 

 

 

And is a wall the best way to achieve this?

 

 

 

 

Well, no, probably not, given that it won't stop them from entering legally and then just never leaving again.





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  #2020242 22-May-2018 10:46
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SaltyNZ:

 

Paul1977:

 

What problem is increased border security supposed to solve?

 

 

Filthy foreigners stealing our jobsthe jobs we don't want to do anyway.

 

 

And is a wall the best way to achieve this?

 

 

Well, no, probably not, given that it won't stop them from entering legally and then just never leaving again.

 

 

In all fairness, I'm sure there are probably many legitimate reason for increased border security. I don't have all the stats, so I won't even assume to know what they are.

 

Question 2 is a different matter entirely. Just from a practical perspective; even assuming that the number of immigrants that are entering illegally across the Mexican border is high enough that security needs increasing from current levels, it is difficult to argue that a physical wall would help (it's not even planned to be very tall).


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  #2020248 22-May-2018 11:07
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I'm not arguing against border security. I'm pointing out that a wall between the US and Mexico won't make any meaningful contribution to it. And since this should be obvious because a) Mexicans can enter legally and overstay, b) a 3000km long wall can never be 100% impenetrable and c) walls don't work against planes or boats, there is only one reason to be going to this much trouble to get one, and it isn't "because it's practical and cheap".





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  #2020258 22-May-2018 11:25
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SaltyNZ:

 

I'm not arguing against border security. I'm pointing out that a wall between the US and Mexico won't make any meaningful contribution to it. And since this should be obvious because a) Mexicans can enter legally and overstay, b) a 3000km long wall can never be 100% impenetrable and c) walls don't work against planes or boats, there is only one reason to be going to this much trouble to get one, and it isn't "because it's practical and cheap".

 

 

It is hard to know its impact with out actually building it it's hard to measure because a wall would last a long time so would be measurement be over 5 years or 50? What figures would have to be factored into a cost benefit analysis? What cost can you put onto illegal immigrants doing things like voting or taking more menial jobs should you factor in potential welfare dependency for lower educated citizens if they could not find a job? 

 

I would imagine the calculation would be complex


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  #2020265 22-May-2018 11:40
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How about we don't build a wall? How complex is that calculation?

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  #2020271 22-May-2018 11:48
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Rikkitic:

 

How about we don't build a wall? How complex is that calculation?

 

 

 

 

Yep, surely more stringent rules/enforcement on employment for employers to follow, and allowing as many temp working visa's as needed to support border area seasonal labour, making it difficult for illegals to manage in the US would all help. Those already born there (Dreamers?) are now US citizens. Draw a line now, then move on. Caught for speeding or anything, no green card = deportation. Also I am sure there are tech ways to scan the unwalled borders between more checkpoints, IR etc


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  #2020276 22-May-2018 12:02
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There is no reasoned rational argument for that wall.  It's symbolic, and that symbol was the cornerstone policy of Trump's campaign, and he absolutely did argue for it using racist rhetoric.

 

Support the wall - support the POTUS's agenda - call yourself what you like. 

 

Trump calls himself "the least racist person you could ever meet".  


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  #2020279 22-May-2018 12:03
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No doubt he is also a feminist.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  #2020282 22-May-2018 12:09
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Stan:

 

There seems to be some debate on the Mueller's investigation of the Trump campaign and Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election might end on September 1.

 

 

There's not "debate" - there's a massive fake-news smear campaign from Trumpists trying discredit Mueller.

 

Mueller doesn't reply to their BS.

 

The Sept 1 claim is from Giuliani.  The reason he's saying that is an attempt to create an illusion that it should be over by Sept 1, Trumpists will use the fact that it doesn't end by that date as yet another  tactic to claim it's a "witch hunt" and to try and shut it down.

 

Giuliani is full of BS.

 

 


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