The President Of The USA: Donald Trump

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# 1606389 8-Aug-2016 15:41

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It's an interesting point made by a colleague of mine that has really stuck in my mind, plus something I've been aware of myself for a while.

A lot of people, in general are sick of the current way things are being done. There is very little PC about Donald Trump. I think overall people are being sick of being told what they are "allowed to think" and "allowed to say" because you might offend someone.

Trump is saying what a lot of people are thinking, right or wrong, and I believe this is why he has the traction he has. He isn't the only one using it, to some success.

Whilst I don't agree with everything in this article, the last little bit has really stuck with me.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/opinion/82809991/van-beynen-dangerous-times-for-older-white-males-with-opinions

"The principle of free speech can sometimes be used to defend the indefensible but it certainly shouldn't be curtailed to avoid hurting the feelings of over-sensitive people whose views are often as unreasonable and entrenched as those of the very people they despise. "

Fred99

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# 1606406 8-Aug-2016 16:06

Martin van Beynan is an older white male with opinions.

In that article, he laments that:

"Roberts' horrific crime was telling a business publication he didn't think gender diversity was as big an issue in the industry as some were suggesting. He did not denigrate women or say they were any less useful than men. He simply challenged a prevailing view about diversity."

What Kevin Roberts actually said was:

"the "f...ing debate is all over" and attacked a gender diversity activist for "making up a lot of the stuff to create profile", and suggested that many women simply do not want to climb the corporate ladder: "I'm just not worried about it because they are very happy, they're very successful, and doing great work."

I'm an older white male with opinions, I can imagine that I'd hear something like that from some lout who'd had a few too many, or from some keyboard warrior on facebook or "Stuff comments", but not from the CEO of a respected organisation - and especially for an organisation which is quite rightly under constant scrutiny for too often having promoted damned unhealthy gender stereotypes.

The "thought police" haven't handcuffed him and thrown in him a dark hole for speaking his mind. He was pressured to resign, and was then fired. And a damned good thing that was.

My wife works in a large organisation where many of the senior roles are held by women. Despite being a "progressive" organisation misogyny remains rife.

networkn

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# 1606420 8-Aug-2016 16:21

Fred99:

Martin van Beynan is an older white male with opinions.

In that article, he laments that:

"Roberts' horrific crime was telling a business publication he didn't think gender diversity was as big an issue in the industry as some were suggesting. He did not denigrate women or say they were any less useful than men. He simply challenged a prevailing view about diversity."

What Kevin Roberts actually said was:

"the "f...ing debate is all over" and attacked a gender diversity activist for "making up a lot of the stuff to create profile", and suggested that many women simply do not want to climb the corporate ladder: "I'm just not worried about it because they are very happy, they're very successful, and doing great work."

I'm an older white male with opinions, I can imagine that I'd hear something like that from some lout who'd had a few too many, or from some keyboard warrior on facebook or "Stuff comments", but not from the CEO of a respected organisation - and especially for an organisation which is quite rightly under constant scrutiny for too often having promoted damned unhealthy gender stereotypes.

The "thought police" haven't handcuffed him and thrown in him a dark hole for speaking his mind. He was pressured to resign, and was then fired. And a damned good thing that was.

My wife works in a large organisation where many of the senior roles are held by women. Despite being a "progressive" organisation misogyny remains rife.

Well, it's interesting. Last week on National radio there was a panel in the afternoon as there is always, which I was listening to, and there was a woman absolutely foaming at the mouth about what a good thing it was he was gone up in arms about what he had said (it seems she has a personal issue with him), when pressed on the matter she pretty much said exactly what he said, and then when pressed about it, denied it's what she had said not 20 seconds earlier. Both men in the studio obviously thought better than to argue with her, but her opinion seemed on the face of it, to agree with him! Sorry for the vagueness I have no idea who the two guests were or the exact phrasing, but I did think and say out loud to myself as she was ranting, "that's what he said" to have the presenter make the same comment 5 seconds later.

Edit: Actually she was responding to the exact phrase you posted ""I'm just not worried about it because they are very happy, they're very successful, and doing great work."

It's a little off this topic, but I know at least 3 women who agree in principal to what he said, just not HOW he said it.

Rikkitic

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# 1606430 8-Aug-2016 16:45

Fred99:

DarthKermit:

That woman with the kid in the pic above looks like she'd like to do to Trump what Monica did to Bill.

The crowd went wild.

That image is really disturbing.

I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney

MikeB4

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# 1606436 8-Aug-2016 16:48

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NOT being a racist, xenophobe, misogynist is not being PC it is intelligence.

Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

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DarthKermit

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# 1606441 8-Aug-2016 16:54

Rikkitic:

That image is really disturbing.

It sure is! Someone has way too much free time to do all that image manipulation.

dejadeadnz

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# 1606527 8-Aug-2016 19:22

networkn:

Well, it's interesting. Last week on National radio there was a panel in the afternoon as there is always, which I was listening to, and there was a woman absolutely foaming at the mouth about what a good thing it was he was gone up in arms about what he had said (it seems she has a personal issue with him), when pressed on the matter she pretty much said exactly what he said, and then when pressed about it, denied it's what she had said not 20 seconds earlier. Both men in the studio obviously thought better than to argue with her, but her opinion seemed on the face of it, to agree with him! Sorry for the vagueness I have no idea who the two guests were or the exact phrasing, but I did think and say out loud to myself as she was ranting, "that's what he said" to have the presenter make the same comment 5 seconds later.

...

It's a little off this topic, but I know at least 3 women who agree in principal to what he said, just not HOW he said it.

Hint: you are against the so called "political correctness" (whatever that all encompassing, oft-abused term is supposed to mean). People tend to hang around with individuals who share their worldviews. And, what's more, three people isn't exactly a large sample size and the mere fact that they are women and agree with Roberts isn't any kind of reasoned proof that Roberts' statements are correct or are in any way morally defensible. We don't, thankfully, do moral assessments by straw polls, head counts, or tyranny of the majority. At least not intelligent people anyway.

Fred99

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# 1606708 9-Aug-2016 08:57

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Very clever. I note the reference to Chanie Gorkin, who I'd never heard of - but this appears to be the poem which inspired the cartoon.

Fred99

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# 1606716 9-Aug-2016 09:10

dejadeadnz:

networkn:

Well, it's interesting. Last week on National radio there was a panel in the afternoon as there is always, which I was listening to, and there was a woman absolutely foaming at the mouth about what a good thing it was he was gone up in arms about what he had said (it seems she has a personal issue with him), when pressed on the matter she pretty much said exactly what he said, and then when pressed about it, denied it's what she had said not 20 seconds earlier. Both men in the studio obviously thought better than to argue with her, but her opinion seemed on the face of it, to agree with him! Sorry for the vagueness I have no idea who the two guests were or the exact phrasing, but I did think and say out loud to myself as she was ranting, "that's what he said" to have the presenter make the same comment 5 seconds later.

...

It's a little off this topic, but I know at least 3 women who agree in principal to what he said, just not HOW he said it.

Hint: you are against the so called "political correctness" (whatever that all encompassing, oft-abused term is supposed to mean). People tend to hang around with individuals who share their worldviews. And, what's more, three people isn't exactly a large sample size and the mere fact that they are women and agree with Roberts isn't any kind of reasoned proof that Roberts' statements are correct or are in any way morally defensible. We don't, thankfully, do moral assessments by straw polls, head counts, or tyranny of the majority. At least not intelligent people anyway.

Presumably to avoid accusation of bias, RNZ seem to load "The Panel" with people put there to create balance in quantity - rather than quality - of argument.

gzt

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# 1607225 9-Aug-2016 19:49

networkn:
It's an interesting point made by a colleague of mine that has really stuck in my mind, plus something I've been aware of myself for a while.

A lot of people, in general are sick of the current way things are being done. There is very little PC about Donald Trump. I think overall people are being sick of being told what they are "allowed to think" and "allowed to say" because you might offend someone.

Trump is saying what a lot of people are thinking, right or wrong, and I believe this is why he has the traction he has. He isn't the only one using it, to some success.

Whilst I don't agree with everything in this article, the last little bit has really stuck with me.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/opinion/82809991/van-beynen-dangerous-times-for-older-white-males-with-opinions

"The principle of free speech can sometimes be used to defend the indefensible but it certainly shouldn't be curtailed to avoid hurting the feelings of over-sensitive people whose views are often as unreasonable and entrenched as those of the very people they despise. "

A student club complained to the administration about some comments made by a professor during a lecture. The professor has apologised for some of that already and is decidedly unapologetic about other parts. The dean is reviewing the comments/lecture. I don't see any evidence that free speech has been curtailed or will be.

Handle9

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# 1607292 9-Aug-2016 22:21

I usually find the whole PC/free speech argument really odd. It's proponents seem to be suggesting that being called out for behaving like an a**hole is somehow limiting their freedom of speech. It just seems like howling at the moon to me.

Free speech as a senior business leader is a completely different kettle of fish. It has never existed and will never exist. If you say something that embarrasses your company enough, you go.

dejadeadnz

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# 1607296 9-Aug-2016 22:27

Handle9: I usually find the whole PC/free speech argument really odd. It's proponents seem to be suggesting that being called out for behaving like an a**hole is somehow limiting their freedom of speech. It just seems like howling at the moon to me.

Free speech as a senior business leader is a completely different kettle of fish. It has never existed and will never exist. If you say something that embarrasses your company enough, you go.

That whole anti-PC business by many is mostly just a loud assertion for some imaginary right to not be challenged and called out for their beliefs/arguments and to not have their existing prejudices/insecurities threatened. Their arguments may (or may not) be logical but they want to assert a right to 'feel" or believe whatever they want to believe and whatever that makes them comfortable.

dejadeadnz

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# 1609790 10-Aug-2016 19:28

The Donald putting his foot in it again

Now I don't like this guy one bit but in this instance, it can conceivably be said that at worst he was just saying that the NRA types can/should defy the law. It's not absolutely clear to me that he's calling for the nutbags to kill Clinton. But the fact that more than the odd person is interpreting his words to be a death threat is entirely the result of his deliberate fomenting of violence and general nutbaggery. Payback can be delicious! If it was anyone else, however poorly expressed or ill-judged the original words might be, he or she would have gotten some benefit of the doubt.

It's over. I think he's done.

Rikkitic

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# 1609795 10-Aug-2016 19:39

So what happens if someone actually shoots her, or him, for that matter? This is America, after all.

I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney

SaltyNZ

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# 1609798 10-Aug-2016 19:45

Rikkitic:

So what happens if someone actually shoots her, or him, for that matter? This is America, after all.

We invade - er, wait, who haven't we... - ah, we invade Saudi Arabia. Of course. Duh.

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