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929 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  #2020391 22-May-2018 14:03
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MikeB4:

 

Paul1977:

 

freitasm:

 

The extreme right is a poisonous snake. It is racist, xenophobe, nationalist (without being patriotic which is different stuff).

 

Whomever supports the extreme right is wrong. Peace and quality of life exists in the middle of the spectrum.

 

The extreme right uses the politics of fear to collect souls to support their cause. 

 

 

While I agree with you, in a moral debate you can never really conclude absolute rights and wrongs.

 

You think it's wrong, I think it's wrong - but what gives us moral superiority?

 

 

 

 

The same "moral superiority" that prompted the action  in 1939. 

 

 

This topic has gone places that I won't respond to not that I would not be keen for people to have a greater understanding of why this ideology is wrong but im not keen to be removed from this forum as this is a seriously dark topic to talk about on a forum like geekzone.


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  #2020392 22-May-2018 14:04
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MikeB4:

 

Paul1977:

 

freitasm:

 

The extreme right is a poisonous snake. It is racist, xenophobe, nationalist (without being patriotic which is different stuff).

 

Whomever supports the extreme right is wrong. Peace and quality of life exists in the middle of the spectrum.

 

The extreme right uses the politics of fear to collect souls to support their cause. 

 

 

While I agree with you, in a moral debate you can never really conclude absolute rights and wrongs.

 

You think it's wrong, I think it's wrong - but what gives us moral superiority?

 

 

The same "moral superiority" that prompted the action  in 1939. 

 

 

I'm not quite sure where you're going with that, I would hope not grouping any thing I'm saying with a certain political leader from that period.

 

All I'm saying is that morality is a man made construct built around a society's own belief systems.

 

I can look at some of Trumps policies and believe them to be 100% wrong. Someone else can believe them to be 100% right. So is it right or wrong?

 

EDIT: That is not to say that we shouldn't argue against things that we believe to be wrong.


 
 
 
 


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  #2020394 22-May-2018 14:10
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Paul1977:

 

 

 

I'm not quite sure where you're going with that, I would hope not grouping any thing I'm saying with a certain political leader from that period.

 

All I'm saying is that morality is a man made construct built around a society's own belief systems.

 

I can look at some of Trumps policies and believe them to be 100% wrong. Someone else can believe them to be 100% right. So is it right or wrong?

 

EDIT: That is not to say that we shouldn't argue against things that we believe to be wrong.

 

 

 

 

No I am certainly not. What I am saying the World or a big percentage from time to stands up for a moral position and acts. It did eventually in the 1930s  with the events in Europe and  New Zealand did in the 80's with Apartheid.   





Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

He waka eke noa


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  #2020418 22-May-2018 14:34
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MikeB4:

 

Paul1977:

 

I'm not quite sure where you're going with that, I would hope not grouping any thing I'm saying with a certain political leader from that period.

 

All I'm saying is that morality is a man made construct built around a society's own belief systems.

 

I can look at some of Trumps policies and believe them to be 100% wrong. Someone else can believe them to be 100% right. So is it right or wrong?

 

EDIT: That is not to say that we shouldn't argue against things that we believe to be wrong.

 

 

No I am certainly not. What I am saying the World or a big percentage from time to stands up for a moral position and acts. It did eventually in the 1930s  with the events in Europe and  New Zealand did in the 80's with Apartheid.   

 

 

My point was simply that labelling all Trump supporters as wrong only serves to increase the "us vs them" narrative that Trump has created.


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  #2020424 22-May-2018 14:53
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I don't label all Trump supporters, I do apply appropriate labels on those that I observe having the same beliefs and make utterances that are the same as Trump or are synonymous to the ethos the Trump subscribes to.





Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

He waka eke noa


Devastation by stupidity
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  #2020447 22-May-2018 15:32
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I do believe in absolute values. Some things, like abusing children, are always wrong. Others, like murder, may be justifiable in certain extreme circumstances. Racism comes from our primitive past, when being able to distinguish between members of your own tribe and outsiders could be a matter of life and death. Most people have subconscious racist tendencies. What matters is how they act on them. I try to be aware of my own subconscious racism, and not to allow it to guide my behaviour. 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  #2020482 22-May-2018 16:06
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Rikkitic:

 

I do believe in absolute values. Some things, like abusing children, are always wrong. Others, like murder, may be justifiable in certain extreme circumstances. Racism comes from our primitive past, when being able to distinguish between members of your own tribe and outsiders could be a matter of life and death. Most people have subconscious racist tendencies. What matters is how they act on them. I try to be aware of my own subconscious racism, and not to allow it to guide my behaviour. 

 



I would add to that to say that I believe that society should be continuously evolving to be more inclusive. We still have quite a way to go with this, but we're slowly getting there. For example, it wasn't that long ago that same sex marriages weren't legal, or that women weren't allowed to vote.

But Trump appears to be moving things in the opposite direction to this, with exclusionary and racist policies being the order of the day. These are often formed in an environment of bigotry and ignorance, and this should be called out whenever it happens.

This bigotry also allows for a pretty good scapegoat, and this is what Trump successfully tapped into with his rise to the White House. I have to say I was pretty disappointed in the USA voting public for falling for this, as his campaign rhetoric didn't stand up to any in-depth scrutiny or fact checking.


 
 
 
 


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  #2020500 22-May-2018 17:08
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MikeB4:
DaveB:

 

MikeB4:

 

I find the last couple of pages of this thread truly flabbergasting.  @Stan

 

1. do you read your posts ?

 

2. Do you really believe what you are typing?

 

3. Are you trolling?

 

 

I think he is doing pretty well and shows AN OPEN MIND. Nothing wrong with that ...... 

 



No, racism is indicative of a mind that is well and truly closed and the key has been thrown away

 

And to a certain extent Mike, your point of view may be quite correct. But that is no different to what Liberalism in general, (certainly demonstrated here on Geekzone), has become - minds that are well are truly closed. I used to be proud to have centered Liberal leanings. Now I am just embarrassed at what the Liberal ideology has become. In 500 odd pages of rants and comments about just how bad Trump is, I have yet to see one contributor have the decency to ask why somebody should have a differing opinion to their own when somebody else expresses a different point of view - unless of course it is a question set up in such a way as to score the odd point. 

 

I think you guys need to move on from the racism card. It is too easy to throw around and at the end of the day, quite counter productive.


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  #2020503 22-May-2018 17:12
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DaveB:

MikeB4:
DaveB:


MikeB4:


I find the last couple of pages of this thread truly flabbergasting.  @Stan


1. do you read your posts ?


2. Do you really believe what you are typing?


3. Are you trolling?



I think he is doing pretty well and shows AN OPEN MIND. Nothing wrong with that ...... 




No, racism is indicative of a mind that is well and truly closed and the key has been thrown away


And to a certain extent Mike, your point of view may be quite correct. But that is no different to what Liberalism in general, (certainly demonstrated here on Geekzone), has become - minds that are well are truly closed. I used to be proud to have centered Liberal leanings. Now I am just embarrassed at what the Liberal ideology has become. In 500 odd pages of rants and comments about just how bad Trump is, I have yet to see one contributor have the decency to ask why somebody should have a differing opinion to their own when somebody else expresses a different point of view - unless of course it is a question set up in such a way as to score the odd point. 


I think you guys need to move on from the racism card. It is too easy to throw around and at the end of the day, quite counter productive.



Sweeping racism under the carpet is an easy way to ignore it.




Mike
Change Management Consultant
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

He waka eke noa


3124 posts

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  #2020505 22-May-2018 17:13
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MikeB4:

 

I don't label all Trump supporters, I do apply appropriate labels on those that I observe having the same beliefs and make utterances that are the same as Trump or are synonymous to the ethos the Trump subscribes to.

 

 

I'm not suggesting that any specific person here is doing that, just that a few of the comments in this thread are leaning that way a bit.

 

It truly amazes me that Trump's approval ratings are as high as they are. I can't explain why so many people support him, but I would like to believe that most of them are good people.


929 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  #2020506 22-May-2018 17:17
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DaveB:

 

MikeB4:
DaveB:

 

MikeB4:

 

I find the last couple of pages of this thread truly flabbergasting.  @Stan

 

1. do you read your posts ?

 

2. Do you really believe what you are typing?

 

3. Are you trolling?

 

 

I think he is doing pretty well and shows AN OPEN MIND. Nothing wrong with that ...... 

 



No, racism is indicative of a mind that is well and truly closed and the key has been thrown away

 

And to a certain extent Mike, your point of view may be quite correct. But that is no different to what Liberalism in general, (certainly demonstrated here on Geekzone), has become - minds that are well are truly closed. I used to be proud to have centered Liberal leanings. Now I am just embarrassed at what the Liberal ideology has become. In 500 odd pages of rants and comments about just how bad Trump is, I have yet to see one contributor have the decency to ask why somebody should have a differing opinion to their own when somebody else expresses a different point of view - unless of course it is a question set up in such a way as to score the odd point. 

 

I think you guys need to move on from the racism card. It is too easy to throw around and at the end of the day, quite counter productive.

 

 

Agreed with all points. It is hard on this thread to express a differing opinion as it is attacked from every angle not that I don't enjoy a good debate but the dog pile and hate directed my way can be exhausting.


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  #2020508 22-May-2018 17:25
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DaveB:. In 500 odd pages of rants and comments about just how bad Trump is, I have yet to see one contributor have the decency to ask why somebody should have a differing opinion to their own when somebody else expresses a different point of view - unless of course it is a question set up in such a way as to score the odd point.

 

 

I tend to agree, and admit I am probably as guilty as anyone of this.

 

I find it incredible the amount of support he has. I honestly can't fathom how any reasonable person could support him, but I would truly like to understand and would love to be part of a rational and civil discussion with people who do support him so I can understand it.

 

By its nature it is not an easy discussion to keep rational, as he is so polarising. People seem to think he is either the second coming, or they hate him with a passion.

 

EDIT: Removed some of the quote from DaveB's post as I don't agree with all of it, left the bit I do agree with.


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  #2020510 22-May-2018 17:26
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DaveB:

 

MikeB4:

 

No, racism is indicative of a mind that is well and truly closed and the key has been thrown away

 

 

And to a certain extent Mike, your point of view may be quite correct. But that is no different to what Liberalism in general, (certainly demonstrated here on Geekzone), has become - minds that are well are truly closed. I used to be proud to have centered Liberal leanings.

 

 

What a load of codswallop!

 

To the alt-right, liberals having "closed minds" equates to not accepting racism, misogyny, general bigotry etc as valid points for discussion.  The "both sides" dishonest argument.

 

Call me what you like - but those are bottom lines. I don't care if you think that there's a discussion to be had - but because of my "closed mind" on not tolerating racism, I'm trying to shut you down.

 

 


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  #2020512 22-May-2018 17:29
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Stan:

 

Agreed with all points. It is hard on this thread to express a differing opinion as it is attacked from every angle not that I don't enjoy a good debate but the dog pile and hate directed my way can be exhausting.

 

 

The "hate" isn't being directed your way - it's being directed against racists and bigots. 


929 posts

Ultimate Geek
Inactive user


  #2020514 22-May-2018 17:32
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Fred99:

 

DaveB:

 

And to a certain extent Mike, your point of view may be quite correct. But that is no different to what Liberalism in general, (certainly demonstrated here on Geekzone), has become - minds that are well are truly closed. I used to be proud to have centered Liberal leanings.

 

 

What a load of codswallop!

 

To the alt-right, liberals having "closed minds" equates to not accepting racism, misogyny, general bigotry etc as valid points for discussion.  The "both sides" dishonest argument.

 

Call me what you like - but those are bottom lines. I don't care if you think that there's a discussion to be had - but because of my "closed mind" on tolerating racism, I'm trying to shut you down.

 

 

What has the Alt-right have to do with anything?

 

Fred are you a member of antifa generally curious?


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