Donald Trump, US President #47, US President #45, convicted felon, twice impeached, four times indicted, liable of rape, convicted for financial fraud, guilty of hiding hush money payments to porn actress in attempt to influence 2016 elections

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Forums › Politics › Donald Trump, US President #47, US President #45, convicted felon, twice impeached, four times indicted, liable of rape, convicted for financial fraud, guilty of hiding hush money payments to porn actress in attempt to influence 2016 elections

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cynnicallemon

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#1641771 28-Sep-2016 12:56

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SaltyNZ:

Actually, I think the real reason is not that he has been underpaying, but that he has legally paid a tax bill that would make the average citizen incandescent with outrage. That is to say, not that he (for example) paid $100M but should have paid $150M, but more that despite being a billionaire, he legally was entitled to only pay $10K due to his financial structure, and did so.

Perhaps one of the reasons why the US is $20B in debt, too many businesses creaming the tax system. It's a global thing though and probably explains why most western countries are seriously in debt. Time for a flat tax rate across the board, no perks etc.

networkn

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#1641774 28-Sep-2016 13:03

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cynnicallemon:

SaltyNZ:

Actually, I think the real reason is not that he has been underpaying, but that he has legally paid a tax bill that would make the average citizen incandescent with outrage. That is to say, not that he (for example) paid $100M but should have paid $150M, but more that despite being a billionaire, he legally was entitled to only pay $10K due to his financial structure, and did so.

Perhaps one of the reasons why the US is $20B in debt, too many businesses creaming the tax system. It's a global thing though and probably explains why most western countries are seriously in debt. Time for a flat tax rate across the board, no perks etc.

Heh sure, GFC II here we come.

They need to close some of the tax holes that exist (as does almost every country), so you need to be supporting a candidate who is campaigning for that. Wait.. Is that silence I hear? No candidate would be elected on that promise, because they would get zero support from the business community.

frankv

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#1641775 28-Sep-2016 13:07

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networkn:

frankv:

networkn:

The TPPA *IS* dead. Neither of the primary candidates will pass it in it's current state.

I suspect that it's just a bargaining position... what would big business give up in exchange for TPPA?

Sorry, I am not sure what you mean by that ? Neither Candidate supports the TPP, it's dead. They will start again after the elections, from pretty much a scratch position.

In your own words: "Neither of the primary candidates will pass it in it's current state. "

That leaves it open for "new information" to emerge, for the terms of TPPA to be adjusted, or for TPPAv2 to be unveiled. Whatever follows TPPA will be built on it, not from scratch.

Rikkitic

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#1641782 28-Sep-2016 13:10

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Who was it who said politics is all about perception? The issue is not whether Trump broke any laws, or whether he was clever in taking advantage of loopholes, or whether he was playing the system in any other way, the issue is entirely how those who might vote for Trump perceive his actions. If it emerges that he has managed to pay little or no tax by whatever means, many people at the bottom of the pile may resent that. Some may applaud his cleverness but many may well feel he is ripping other taxpayers off and enjoying the good life on their backs. That could certainly cost him support, regardless of the morality or legality of his actions. Hillary scored points when she started listing all the veterans, hospitals, schools, etc. that would be deprived of his tax income.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Sideface

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#1641786 28-Sep-2016 13:20

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Rikkitic:

Who was it who said politics is all about perception? The issue is not whether Trump broke any laws, or whether he was clever in taking advantage of loopholes, or whether he was playing the system in any other way, the issue is entirely how those who might vote for Trump perceive his actions. If it emerges that he has managed to pay little or no tax by whatever means, many people at the bottom of the pile may resent that. Some may applaud his cleverness but many may well feel he is ripping other taxpayers off and enjoying the good life on their backs. That could certainly cost him support, regardless of the morality or legality of his actions. Hillary scored points when she started listing all the veterans, hospitals, schools, etc. that would be deprived of his tax income.

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Fred99

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#1641795 28-Sep-2016 13:24

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cynnicallemon:

Perhaps one of the reasons why the US is $20B in debt.

It's trillion @cynicallemon. (and not at $20 trillion yet).

Using the Big Mac Index, $20 billion would give everybody on the planet roughly one free lunch. $20 trillion would give them breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day for about a year.

On a per capita basis it's only slightly worse than NZ. As a % of GDP, they're less in debt than NZ.

Nigeria, Ethiopia, Haiti etc have very low debt by world standards - so debt level must be a great indicator of how well an economy is doing?

frankv

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#1641820 28-Sep-2016 13:27

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networkn:

frankv:

networkn:

Having said that, if he is LEGALLY used methods in law to avoid paying taxes, then you can't penalize him for that, you can only criticise the law-makers.

Well, the legal system can't penalize him. But there's no compulsion to avoid tax, and many (most?) people believe that there is an ethical/moral obligation for people to pay "their fair share" of the taxation burden. Those people would criticise DT as a parasite sponging off them.

So how much tax "should" he pay? A Million? Billion? Trillion? What's his "moral" obligation? He's running a business. If he is illegally avoiding tax, or even using "questionable" methods, then throw his ass in prison, otherwise, not sure what you expect to happen?

He gets audited almost every year, rest assured the tax dept are looking for him to fall over, he will be meeting his obligations, or paying the price.

I suspect the reason he doesn't want to show his returns is he may have been caught out by underpaying taxes, and have paid penalties etc, which will not look good.

I doubt he's paying less than his legal obligations (although what those obligations are is somewhat grey).

How much tax should he pay? If I was an American and anything less than a billionaire, the short answer would be "More than me".

What I would expect to happen: Americans will add up his flaws, compare them to Hillary's, and make a decision. For many, parasitism would push them over the hump into voting for Hillary. DT knows that, and therefore doesn't want to disclose how little he does actually pay.

networkn

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#1641824 28-Sep-2016 13:33

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frankv:

I doubt he's paying less than his legal obligations (although what those obligations are is somewhat grey).

How much tax should he pay? If I was an American and anything less than a billionaire, the short answer would be "More than me".

What I would expect to happen: Americans will add up his flaws, compare them to Hillary's, and make a decision. For many, parasitism would push them over the hump into voting for Hillary. DT knows that, and therefore doesn't want to disclose how little he does actually pay.

Yeah the "more than me thing seems "sort of" sound".

To be fair, given everything else the Americans are ignoring about him, is him doing what every billionaire around is doing, going to push them over the edge? I doubt it.

Thing is, even as the CEO, he isn't entirely in control of his own affairs, he will have a mandate from a board, and the board will be the ones who will (responsibly) be stating he must have tax consultants, to manage his affairs.

At the end of the day, the tax laws are the issues, not the individuals.

Fred99

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#1641827 28-Sep-2016 13:37

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frankv:

DT knows that, and therefore doesn't want to disclose how little he does actually pay.

I very much doubt that's the explanation - he stated loud and clearly that to pay no tax just proves how clever and smart he is. He'd surely relish any opportunity to prove how clever he is.

How much or little tax he pays isn't why he's too scared to release his tax records. Those records will also disclose his BS "charities" and other deductions he claims, where his income comes from.

All his abject BS about how he's going to put a stop to profit-shifting etc to "make America great again", there's a very good chance he's been using the same methods he condemns. Lord knows what other deals and arrangement would also come to light, about the true nature of his indebtedness to Russian oligarchs, how "unleveraged" he really is, and how trustworthy he'd be to put the American people's interests ahead of his own if he was POTUS.

tdgeek

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#1641830 28-Sep-2016 13:39

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frankv:

networkn:

frankv:

networkn:

Having said that, if he is LEGALLY used methods in law to avoid paying taxes, then you can't penalize him for that, you can only criticise the law-makers.

Well, the legal system can't penalize him. But there's no compulsion to avoid tax, and many (most?) people believe that there is an ethical/moral obligation for people to pay "their fair share" of the taxation burden. Those people would criticise DT as a parasite sponging off them.

So how much tax "should" he pay? A Million? Billion? Trillion? What's his "moral" obligation? He's running a business. If he is illegally avoiding tax, or even using "questionable" methods, then throw his ass in prison, otherwise, not sure what you expect to happen?

He gets audited almost every year, rest assured the tax dept are looking for him to fall over, he will be meeting his obligations, or paying the price.

I suspect the reason he doesn't want to show his returns is he may have been caught out by underpaying taxes, and have paid penalties etc, which will not look good.

I doubt he's paying less than his legal obligations (although what those obligations are is somewhat grey).

How much tax should he pay? If I was an American and anything less than a billionaire, the short answer would be "More than me".

What I would expect to happen: Americans will add up his flaws, compare them to Hillary's, and make a decision. For many, parasitism would push them over the hump into voting for Hillary. DT knows that, and therefore doesn't want to disclose how little he does actually pay.

It depends how voters see the importance of their party, against the importance of a leader, who, lets face it, cannot run a country, he has no skillset for that, he will be guided, prodded into doing what the GOP want. With that in mind, DT is an annoyance, but the greater good is getting the GOP in. And as they have been out for 8 years, thats a big motivation to gun for the party and hope they restrain the wild tiger.

tdgeek

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#1641831 28-Sep-2016 13:41

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Fred99:

frankv:

DT knows that, and therefore doesn't want to disclose how little he does actually pay.

I very much doubt that's the explanation - he stated loud and clearly that to pay no tax just proves how clever and smart he is. He'd surely relish any opportunity to prove how clever he is.

How much or little tax he pays isn't why he's too scared to release his tax records. Those records will also disclose his BS "charities" and other deductions he claims, where his income comes from.

All his abject BS about how he's going to put a stop to profit-shifting etc to "make America great again", there's a very good chance he's been using the same methods he condemns. Lord knows what other deals and arrangement would also come to light, about the true nature of his indebtedness to Russian oligarchs, how "unleveraged" he really is, and how trustworthy he'd be to put the American people's interests ahead of his own if he was POTUS.

Can he be impeached for any of that?

SaltyNZ

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#1641832 28-Sep-2016 13:41

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frankv:

In your own words: "Neither of the primary candidates will pass it in it's current state. "

That leaves it open for "new information" to emerge, for the terms of TPPA to be adjusted, or for TPPAv2 to be unveiled. Whatever follows TPPA will be built on it, not from scratch.

The TPPA isn't "adjustable". It's a treaty: it has been agreed and signed already. If they US wants to change it, it's back to the negotiating table for everyone. Nobody, not even the US, can unilaterally modify it as they see fit.

I mean, sure, it is the US we are talking about here - they can do whatever the hell they want - but if they do, then nobody else has to hold up their end of the treaty towards the US either.

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MikeB4

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#1641838 28-Sep-2016 13:46

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No one has ratified TPPA yet so changes will happen or the agreement will collapse which is more likely.

Fred99

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#1641839 28-Sep-2016 13:46

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GOP should be concerned with the important stuff - like whether to shoot the sequel to Brokeback Mountain in Wyoming or the Urals.

networkn

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#1641840 28-Sep-2016 13:47

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SaltyNZ:

frankv:

In your own words: "Neither of the primary candidates will pass it in it's current state. "

That leaves it open for "new information" to emerge, for the terms of TPPA to be adjusted, or for TPPAv2 to be unveiled. Whatever follows TPPA will be built on it, not from scratch.

The TPPA isn't "adjustable". It's a treaty: it has been agreed and signed already. If they US wants to change it, it's back to the negotiating table for everyone. Nobody, not even the US, can unilaterally modify it as they see fit.

I mean, sure, it is the US we are talking about here - they can do whatever the hell they want - but if they do, then nobody else has to hold up their end of the treaty towards the US either.

I think that's the point. Neither Trump nor Clinton care if we don't hold up our side of the agreement. Also as you said, they can do whatever they want.

We had more to gain than they did, which is Trumps issue. I don't think a new treaty would be agreed on whilst Trump is in office, because he has made clear multiple times, that his requirements wouldn't come close to being acceptable to most countries and that he is entirely fine with no treaty as a result.

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