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# 2221926 21-Apr-2019 23:16
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Fred99:

marmel:  The criticisms of Clinton we're more than justified.


Really?


That she was a weak post-menopausal woman, that she did something terrible in Benghazi, that she used a private email server as it seems is common in the WH today, that Democrats were running a child sex ring out of a pizza store, and was going to let the US be invaded by rapists and murderers?


 



None of the above.

I was thinking more along the lines of her cosy relationship with Wall St, you know the quarter million dollar speeches, especially the one where she said she has a "public position and a private position", that sought of thing.

The baggage from Bill and his own oval office shenanigans.

The things you mentioned are what the left normally bring up when trying to discredit any criticism of HRH, I generally stick to the things she actually did.


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  # 2221928 21-Apr-2019 23:19
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And Trump has not cosied up with the rich CEOs and out his friends in places?

She was not elected because a woman president after a black president would spin the Republicans' heads so fast they had to stop it.




 
 
 
 


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  # 2221932 21-Apr-2019 23:27
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freitasm: And Trump has not cosied up with the rich CEOs and out his friends in places?

She was not elected because a woman president after a black president would spin the Republicans' heads so fast they had to stop it.


Definitely, I mean Trump pretty much based his entire image on being just that type of person. But he never pretended to be anything else, the guy hasn't really changed at all pre/post election.

Clinton on the other hand was all about being "fair" to everyone, representing the strugglers if you like, when in reality she was more than comfortable accepting millions of dollars for personal gain from some of the very corporations her voter base would likely blame for their lot in life. Hence why I have said she was a very poor candidate to stand against Trump.

Sanders was perhaps more of a genuine centre left candidate but I guess his "enthusiasm" didn't sit well with the Dems heighrachy who let's face it didn't go out of their way to make it a fair race between HRH and himself.

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  # 2221937 22-Apr-2019 00:21
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Um, didn't Clinton win the popular vote by around three million? That hardly sounds like a repudiation to me. She only lost the presidency because of the quirks of the electoral college. Sure, the campaign stuffed up, but people weren't exactly marching in the streets with banners saying how much they hated her.

 

 

 

 





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  # 2221950 22-Apr-2019 07:44
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Rikkitic:

Um, didn't Clinton win the popular vote by around three million? That hardly sounds like a repudiation to me. She only lost the presidency because of the quirks of the electoral college. Sure, the campaign stuffed up, but people weren't exactly marching in the streets with banners saying how much they hated her.


 


 



The "quirks of the electoral college" are supposed to even out the playing field and make sure all states across the US are heard at the ballot box as opposed to one or two states deciding the outcome time after time. In the last 140 years or so there has only been 4 or 5 occasions were the popular vote has gone to the losing candidate so I don't think the system is that bad keeping in mind no electorial processes are perfect, you only have to look at our own backyard and the whole CGT debacle to realise that.

I think the fact that she lost to someone like Trump speaks for itself, no marching in the streets necessary, the message was clearly delivered.

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  # 2222003 22-Apr-2019 09:00
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marmel:
Rikkitic:

 

Um, didn't Clinton win the popular vote by around three million? That hardly sounds like a repudiation to me. She only lost the presidency because of the quirks of the electoral college. Sure, the campaign stuffed up, but people weren't exactly marching in the streets with banners saying how much they hated her.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



The "quirks of the electoral college" are supposed to even out the playing field and make sure all states across the US are heard at the ballot box as opposed to one or two states deciding the outcome time after time. In the last 140 years or so there has only been 4 or 5 occasions were the popular vote has gone to the losing candidate so I don't think the system is that bad keeping in mind no electorial processes are perfect, you only have to look at our own backyard and the whole CGT debacle to realise that.

I think the fact that she lost to someone like Trump speaks for itself, no marching in the streets necessary, the message was clearly delivered.

 

The electoral college was originally set up to suppress universal suffrage:

 

“The right of suffrage was much more diffusive [i.e., extensive] in the Northern than the Southern States; and the latter could have no influence in the election on the score of Negroes.” In other words, in a direct election system, the North would outnumber the South, whose many slaves (more than half a million in all) of course could not vote. But the Electoral College—a prototype of which Madison proposed in this same speech—instead let each southern state count its slaves, albeit with a two-fifths discount, in computing its share of the overall count.

 

The twice in recent times where the loser of the popular vote became president were Bush II and Trump.

 

I have no idea why you'd suggest that the CGT "debacle" could suggest that democracy has failed in NZ. 


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  # 2222005 22-Apr-2019 09:03
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Fred99:

marmel:
Rikkitic:


Um, didn't Clinton win the popular vote by around three million? That hardly sounds like a repudiation to me. She only lost the presidency because of the quirks of the electoral college. Sure, the campaign stuffed up, but people weren't exactly marching in the streets with banners saying how much they hated her.


 


 


 


 




The "quirks of the electoral college" are supposed to even out the playing field and make sure all states across the US are heard at the ballot box as opposed to one or two states deciding the outcome time after time. In the last 140 years or so there has only been 4 or 5 occasions were the popular vote has gone to the losing candidate so I don't think the system is that bad keeping in mind no electorial processes are perfect, you only have to look at our own backyard and the whole CGT debacle to realise that.

I think the fact that she lost to someone like Trump speaks for itself, no marching in the streets necessary, the message was clearly delivered.


The electoral college was originally set up to suppress universal suffrage:


“The right of suffrage was much more diffusive [i.e., extensive] in the Northern than the Southern States; and the latter could have no influence in the election on the score of Negroes.” In other words, in a direct election system, the North would outnumber the South, whose many slaves (more than half a million in all) of course could not vote. But the Electoral College—a prototype of which Madison proposed in this same speech—instead let each southern state count its slaves, albeit with a two-fifths discount, in computing its share of the overall count.


The twice in recent times where the loser of the popular vote became president were Bush II and Trump.


I have no idea why you'd suggest that the CGT "debacle" could suggest that democracy has failed in NZ. 



Really????

How much of the CGT being dumped came down to NZ First? Tail wagging the dog....

 
 
 
 


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  # 2222052 22-Apr-2019 11:02
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marmel:

 

Really????

How much of the CGT being dumped came down to NZ First? Tail wagging the dog....

 

How on earth could it be that a "failure of democracy"? Would you rather it be that an elected member of parliament shouldn't be able to vote as he/she feels best represents the constituents who elected them to parliament - under a proportional representation system.  If the opposition had wanted to support a CGT, they could have.  Public opinion was against it, and it isn't happening.

 

You're leading this way off-topic, and as is usual for Trump apologists (by way of "it was the Democrats fault") - using false equivalence.


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  # 2222060 22-Apr-2019 11:14
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Fred99:

marmel:


Really????

How much of the CGT being dumped came down to NZ First? Tail wagging the dog....


How on earth could it be that a "failure of democracy"? Would you rather it be that an elected member of parliament shouldn't be able to vote as he/she feels best represents the constituents who elected them to parliament - under a proportional representation system.  If the opposition had wanted to support a CGT, they could have.  Public opinion was against it, and it isn't happening.


You're leading this way off-topic, and as is usual for Trump apologists (by way of "it was the Democrats fault") - using false equivalence.



So you think a party that has less than 10% support should be weilding so much influence over the government that they can veto one of the most important policy initiatives of the current term? Doesn't sound very Democratic to me.

Unfortunately you are also starting to sound very familiar, the left generally resort to that type of rhetoric when they run out of valid argument. I've never apologised for Trump, I have said repeatedly on this forum and others since he was elected that he is unfit for the position. If I was a US citizen I would not have voted for Trump, nor would I have voted for HRC.

In NZ I have voted Labour and National over the last 5 elections, you seem to be in the "he doesn't like Hillary so he must be a Trump fanatic" camp and you couldn't be more wrong. Again you reinforce one of my earlier comments that the Dems are all about finger pointing and trying to aportion blame for their own failings which is why I said they are likely doomed to repeat 2016.

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  # 2222062 22-Apr-2019 11:33
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I think you are mischaracterising democrats and the 'left' (whatever that is). Trump is a polarising figure. Those who don't love him hate him. But your remarks imply that there is some kind of homogeneity amongst Trump opponents and democrats are anything but homogeneous. That is one of their problems. About the only thing they can agree on is their hatred of Trump. You keep going on about the left this and the left that, but there is no 'left' in the sense you are referring to, just a lot of people who don't like Trump and the things he stands for. If there actually was a 'left', they might have some chance of driving him back in his hole. 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 2222064 22-Apr-2019 11:34
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marmel:

 

So you think a party that has less than 10% support should be weilding so much influence over the government that they can veto one of the most important policy initiatives of the current term?

 

 

Yes, that's how MMP works: parties need to compromise.




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  # 2222068 22-Apr-2019 11:41
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SaltyNZ:
marmel:
So you think a party that has less than 10% support should be weilding so much influence over the government that they can veto one of the most important policy initiatives of the current term?


Yes, that's how MMP works: parties need to compromise.


Agreed, but when you have one of the two major parties desperate to get back into power it can mean they are willing to compromise more than what they probably ought to and policy that is supported by a small minority of the country is forced upon the rest due to said agreement.

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  # 2222069 22-Apr-2019 11:42
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President Donald Trump's attorney Rudy Giuliani: Nothing wrong with taking info from Russians

CNN


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  # 2222080 22-Apr-2019 11:50
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What If Fox News Covered Trump the Way It Covered Obama?

NowThis


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  # 2222088 22-Apr-2019 12:13
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marmel:

Agreed, but when you have one of the two major parties desperate to get back into power it can mean they are willing to compromise more than what they probably ought to and policy that is supported by a small minority of the country is forced upon the rest due to said agreement.

 

What is the purpose of an emotive word like 'desperate'? Is any party 'desperate' to get back into power? What does the use of that term mean? We have an adversarial political system in which parties with different policies compete for voter approval. What is 'desperate' about that? 

 

We have a democracy. Under our system, simple majority rules. People vote and their votes are counted. If no single party achieves a majority, then different parties negotiate to try to form a coalition. Each party is there because people voted for it. Nothing is 'forced' on anybody. If a minority party gets what it wants on a policy matter, it is because it democratically won enough votes to make demands. If people don't like the result, people shouldn't vote for that party. I don't see a problem here.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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