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1098 posts

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  # 2222090 22-Apr-2019 12:17
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kingdragonfly: What If Fox News Covered Trump the Way It Covered Obama?

 

NowThis  https://youtu.be/b-cZG81-MPQ

 

LOL, ain't that the truth!

 

If I was a jillionaire, I'd kidnap all those Friendsied Foxers, tie 'em to chairs with their eyelids glued open and play that video non-stop until they recanted.





TRexit - Vote him out, drag him out, take him out: either way, he's gotta go.


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  # 2222091 22-Apr-2019 12:18
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Rikkitic:

marmel:

Agreed, but when you have one of the two major parties desperate to get back into power it can mean they are willing to compromise more than what they probably ought to and policy that is supported by a small minority of the country is forced upon the rest due to said agreement.


What is the purpose of an emotive word like 'desperate'? Is any party 'desperate' to get back into power? What does the use of that term mean? We have an adversarial political system in which parties with different policies compete for voter approval. What is 'desperate' about that? 


We have a democracy. Under our system, simple majority rules. People vote and their votes are counted. If no single party achieves a majority, then different parties negotiate to try to form a coalition. Each party is there because people voted for it. Nothing is 'forced' on anybody. If a minority party gets what it wants on a policy matter, it is because it democratically won enough votes to make demands. If people don't like the result, people shouldn't vote for that party. I don't see a problem here.


 



Pretty sure anyone with a bit of common sense would agree after 9 years on the opposition benches Labour would have been desperate to get back in power.

With regards to the rest of your comment thanks but I know how MMP works and there is no point me repeating what I have already stated with how I think it can be compromised.

 
 
 
 


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  # 2222145 22-Apr-2019 13:00
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marmel:

Pretty sure anyone with a bit of common sense would agree after 9 years on the opposition benches Labour would have been desperate to get back in power.

With regards to the rest of your comment thanks but I know how MMP works and there is no point me repeating what I have already stated with how I think it can be compromised.

 

Both parties were desperate. Bill decreed he already won when he invited Peters to discuss it. Thats desperate? No, neither is Labour, they all wanted ti win, you are using words incorrectly to make you argument seem better.

 

MMP works. We could have National winning and they veto CGT. We could have Labour winning with NZF so we have CGT or a form thereof. We have a coalition and as anyone with any common sense would realise, its a compromise Government. No radical lets do everything as we can, so its more conservative. Its what more than 50% voted for, don't forget that. Maori Party sold out, gifted their votes for money, I would argue that a  bad use of MMP, but hey, they were voted in, they made a deal. We could have first past the pots, once elected they pass whatever bills they like. And the 15-20% of votes for minority parties aren't counted.


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  # 2222150 22-Apr-2019 13:08
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tdgeek:

 

marmel:

Pretty sure anyone with a bit of common sense would agree after 9 years on the opposition benches Labour would have been desperate to get back in power.

With regards to the rest of your comment thanks but I know how MMP works and there is no point me repeating what I have already stated with how I think it can be compromised.

 

Both parties were desperate. Bill decreed he already won when he invited Peters to discuss it. Thats desperate? No, neither is Labour, they all wanted ti win, you are using words incorrectly to make you argument seem better.

 

MMP works. We could have National winning and they veto CGT. We could have Labour winning with NZF so we have CGT or a form thereof. We have a coalition and as anyone with any common sense would realise, its a compromise Government. No radical lets do everything as we can, so its more conservative. Its what more than 50% voted for, don't forget that. Maori Party sold out, gifted their votes for money, I would argue that a  bad use of MMP, but hey, they were voted in, they made a deal. We could have first past the pots, once elected they pass whatever bills they like. And the 15-20% of votes for minority parties aren't counted.

 

 

Why are you ruining my enjoyment of the Trump thread with this rubbish?


Lock him up!
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  # 2222153 22-Apr-2019 13:14
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I actually agree with preceding. There are other places for this discussion. Let's keep it to Trump and his crimes.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 2222155 22-Apr-2019 13:17
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SJB:

 

The Des need to move on. They are not going to get him out with the Mueller report and they are not going to get him impeached.

 

 

 

 

That is the exact opposite of what they need to do, as it will set a very dangerous precedent. 

in the current political landscape there, it is unlikely that impeachment proceedings will be successful, as the Republicans control the Senate. But  having these proceedings will force further investigations, with more information of the level of corruption and conspiracy of the Trump administration becoming public.

We already know from the Mueller report that Trump did obstruct justice, and that he fired the head of the FBI to prevent a probe into potential criminal behaviour by him, and that he tried to do the same with the Special Council's investigation into 

 

We also know that there is a large body of evidence to suggest that members of the Trump administration did communicate with Russia to help to get him elected, and to craft Russian friendly foreign policy after the election. We know that the Steele dossier was confirmed to be pretty accurate (including a possible "pee tape"). But Mueller could not prove this to the degree required to guarantee a criminal conviction, largely in part due to the frequent lies and destruction of evidence by the parties being investigated.

If the Democrats now do nothing, this moves the bar for future presidents. It states that it is OK for a sitting president perform illegal and unconstitutional activities, and then obstruct any attempts to investigate him. So they need to be the party that is at least attempting to hold the president to account. Failure to do so and you can kiss goodbye to these checks and balances that Americans like to pride themselves on.


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  # 2222171 22-Apr-2019 13:45
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OK back to the Donald.

One thing that is going to be interesting at the 2020 election is the approach the Dems take. There is a comment above about the Clinton campaign going high when they go low, well we now know that approach was a load of BS. We now know the Clinton campaign was paying an ex-UK spy to try and dig up dirt on Trump so the go high comment was a lie.

However, Trump is in a unique situation in that the voters knew who he was and what he was before he was elected. It's not as if all of the stuff came out after he became president, people voted for him in spite of that. Now whether people voted against Hillary as opposed to for Trump will be important as if that is the case any half decent Dem candidate should be able to win easily.

The other consideration is that his core voter base, knowing what he was all about and voting for him anyway, would only have strengthened their belief in him given the constant barage of attacks from some in the media, Dems and others. The Mueller report will work in his favour as well as no doubt his core voter base will see that as a "witch-hunt" given the conclusion. Circling the wagons and all that.

 
 
 
 


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  # 2222177 22-Apr-2019 14:18
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Although Trump is the focus, I think he is actually peripheral to something much bigger that is going on. The Republican party, and conservatism in general, has been taken over by an ideological crusade that grew out of the Tea Party movement. It has little to do with traditional establishment republicanism. Because it is a crusade, those who are part of it feel they have some kind of superior god-given authority to do whatever it takes to win, regardless of any other moral or ethical considerations. You see this in the behaviour of republican politicians elsewhere, especially  in recent state elections. The end justifies the means and any form of cheating is acceptable as long as it serves the higher purpose. So elections are gerrymandered, voter rolls purged, illegal ballots cast, anything to win. In some states emergency legislation is pushed through by departing Republicans to try to neuter incoming Democratic officials who have just won elections. Efforts are made to undermine the judicial nomination process to stack courts, especially the Supreme Court, with conservative justices. In all of this, Trump is just a useful pawn, which is why his many transgressions are conveniently overlooked. As long as he continues to achieve the desired results, he really can get away with murder. What is happening is not a coup in any usual sense, but an orchestrated attempt to take over the American soul. Whether it is too late to turn this around, or whether enough voters even want to, is the big question. Trump has never enjoyed majority support, and the last election demonstrated that today's Republicans don't, either, but it doesn't take a majority to subvert a democracy, just a determined minority who don't care about playing by the rules and an amoral figurehead to rally them.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 2222179 22-Apr-2019 14:35
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I don't think that is all that is going on.

For a start look at Brexit, look at what just happened in Ukraine, a comedian with no political experience whatsoever has just become president.

I think there is definitely a small but vocal minority that are sick of career politicians thinking they know what is best and Clinton fit that bill, as would of numerous other previous candidates from both sides of the political spectrum, it just happened that Clinton had her run at this particular time.

Rightly or wrongly I think there is an ability for a complete political novice, who is an obviously flawed human being, to connect with a large number of voters in the US due to the reasons above.

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  # 2222193 22-Apr-2019 15:03
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marmel: OK back to the Donald.

 We now know the Clinton campaign was paying an ex-UK spy to try and dig up dirt on Trump so the go high comment was a lie.

 

LOL.

 

The investigation by Fusion GPS into Trump's dealings wasn't initiated by the Democrats, it was originally funded by a conservative political organisation allied with the GOP.

 

FWIW, investigations into opposition politicians are routine.  Much of the "Steel Dossier" has been verified. 


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  # 2222195 22-Apr-2019 15:06
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marmel: Agreed, but when you have one of the two major parties desperate to get back into power it can mean they are willing to compromise more than what they probably ought to and policy that is supported by a small minority of the country is forced upon the rest due to said agreement.

 

 

 

...So, like the Republican Party?




iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


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  # 2222211 22-Apr-2019 15:12
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Trump's well on track to exceed his record of being the first POTUS since polling began to have commenced his term in negative figures, he's probably also going to be the first POTUS to never exceed 50% during his entire term.

 


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  # 2222212 22-Apr-2019 15:13
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Fred99:

marmel: OK back to the Donald.

 We now know the Clinton campaign was paying an ex-UK spy to try and dig up dirt on Trump so the go high comment was a lie.


LOL.


The investigation by Fusion GPS into Trump's dealings wasn't initiated by the Democrats, it was originally funded by a conservative political organisation allied with the GOP.


FWIW, investigations into opposition politicians are routine.  Much of the "Steel Dossier" has been verified. 



At the early stage the investigation was launched by a republican, but the Clinton campaign ran with it and provided funding, not the Democrats. Hence why I said the "they go low we go high" statement was complete BS, they were trying to dig up as much dirt as possible.

Some of the info which was leaked prior to the election such as the infamous alledged Russian prostitute scenario has never been accepted as anything other than very dodgy Intel.

Even the Mueller report dismisses quite a lot of the Steele dossier as uncorroborated intel that relies heavily on a Russian-Trump conspiracy which we now know simply didn't happen.

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  # 2222218 22-Apr-2019 15:24
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marmel:

Even the Mueller report dismisses quite a lot of the Steele dossier as uncorroborated intel that relies heavily on a Russian-Trump conspiracy which we now know simply didn't happen.

 

No we don't.  We may know that collusion between the Trump campaign and "Russia" (govt) may not have happened.  But Russian interests definitely campaigned to help Trump get elected.


gzt

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  # 2222322 22-Apr-2019 18:12
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marmel: Clinton on the other hand was all about being "fair" to everyone, representing the strugglers if you like, when in reality she was more than comfortable accepting millions of dollars for personal gain from some of the very corporations her voter base would likely blame for their lot in life. Hence why I have said she was a very poor candidate to stand against Trump.

Agree. In better times Clinton's unprecedented offer of free university tuition (fees) would have swung it easily. Times are not that good some places with more basic concerns and Trump's (plus Facebook's) demonisation of Clinton was very successful. That and she seemed to be offering very little. Even so I think most Democratic Party funders are looking for a continuation of Clinton type policies. This is the reason Sanders gets grass roots support from all kinds of unexpected places and multiple small donations powering his campaign.

That might be enough of Democrat discussion in this topic. I created a topic for discussion of Democrat 2020 candidates. Interested in your opinion there.

(& @marmel ).

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