Donald Trump, US President #47, US President #45, convicted felon, twice impeached, four times indicted, liable of rape, convicted for financial fraud, guilty of hiding hush money payments to porn actress in attempt to influence 2016 elections

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Forums › Politics › Donald Trump, US President #47, US President #45, convicted felon, twice impeached, four times indicted, liable of rape, convicted for financial fraud, guilty of hiding hush money payments to porn actress in attempt to influence 2016 elections

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networkn

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#1650962 14-Oct-2016 11:45

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DarthKermit:

"If" Trumpy loses this election, you're guaranteed that he'll be blaming everyone but himself for years to come.

That's not soley a Trump trait.

Rikkitic

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#1650980 14-Oct-2016 12:01

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Nope. Schicklgruber also used it.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

Pumpedd

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#1650988 14-Oct-2016 12:11

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Kim Dot Com and Co climbed on the lies and deceit band wagon last NZ election and failed miserable cause the public were smarter than them and could see through the charade.

I only hope for the worlds sake that the people of America vote with intelligence next month.

The effects of the worlds children watching all this every time they turn on a television is deeply concerning.

Fred99

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#1651020 14-Oct-2016 12:40

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jarledb:

From what I can understand: The moment Trump decided to run for President, he lost all his power to sue people for libel. Or am I wrong?

I think that's not correct - even the President could sue - but it would probably be a very dumb move, as sh!t tends to stick.

For public figures to win a libel case, they need to prove "actual malice".

You'll notice something interesting - and more than a coincidence - if you follow that link. Precedent for actual malice was set in 1964 in a case involving none other than the New York Times, who won unanimously in a landmark case when the Good Ol' Boys of Alabama tried to shut them up from talking about civil rights. You're allowed to make factual error if there was no actual malice.

Advice to Trump - don't threaten the NYT.

Once he's president of course (LOL) you can forget about rule of law in the US. IIRC he stated very loudly and clearly (twice?) during the last presidential debate, that the first thing he was going to do when he was president was to "appoint a special prosecutor" to "throw her in jail". That's actually a far greater threat to the US than his alleged (and very likely to be true) "octopus" issues.

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#1651027 14-Oct-2016 13:06

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Pumpedd:

Kim Dot Com and Co climbed on the lies and deceit band wagon last NZ election and failed miserable cause the public were smarter than them and could see through the charade.

Actually, I would personally interpret his loss as completely the opposite of the public being able to see through the charade. He's accused of making it slightly easier for other people to copy DVDs. And for that he got a dawn raid with military-armed police in helicopters. We don't usually treat murderers or rapists with that level of aggression. KDC certainly is no saint, but the charade here is the one that is being played out to mislead you from the far bigger issues around your civil rights.

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Jeeves

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#1651070 14-Oct-2016 13:40

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SaltyNZ:

And for that he got a dawn raid with military-armed police in helicopters. We don't usually treat murderers or rapists with that level of aggression.

A lot of people have said the raid was over the top. I reckon if you take a step back and think about it, it wasn't completely excessive.

(I'm referring to the raid itself, not the reason for it, the legality of the warrant, or the crap that has ensued since).

It was known that there were firearms in the property - so AOS and arming of officers was necessary. No one would dispute that.

The raid was to gather evidence such as computers etc. The police have to apprehend people in the building as quickly as possible to reduce the risk of disposal or destruction of evidence.

The shortest driveway to the property (Out of 3 entrances) is 300 meters long, and has a manned security entrance. If the police only approached by vehicle or foot - his security guards and systems would have alerted him well in advance. If you watch the raid video - the police first sent an old friendly looking Sergeant or Inspector up to the gate first to get the guards attention without raising any alarms, then a few seconds later the heavies come in. That took care of the entrance guard, but would have still allowed plenty of time while they opened the gate and drove up the driveway for the security systems and other roaming guards to alert the occupants.... so the next best thing?

Helicopters! The helicopter would have practically landed by the time anyone knew it was there due the frequency of helicopters in that area - and it landed only a few meters from the entrance to the house.

You say we don't treat rapists and murders with that level of aggression. If they lived in a massive sprawling mansion and were in possession of evidence that could contribute to their case that they could destroy given enough time - then yes, they would receive the same amount of attention. Police do aggressive raids every day - but it's not everyday they have to deal with the size and sophistication that DC had.

As I said, I'm strictly referring to the logistics of the raid itself, not all the other crap that surrounded it.

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#1651075 14-Oct-2016 13:53

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Ok, but don't forget why they were raiding. Not murder, not rape, not drugs, not terrorism. The complaint was copyright infringement. It was ridiculously, idiotically, unjustifiably, over the top, presumably to impress the American masters.

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Fred99

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#1651080 14-Oct-2016 14:00

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Pumpedd:

The effects of the worlds children watching all this every time they turn on a television is deeply concerning.

If you're worried about your children and want to offer them some comfort and hope, then I strongly urge you to get them to watch this:

frankv

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#1651081 14-Oct-2016 14:00

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networkn:

frankv:

networkn:

To be honest I am surprised to see people think there is nothing suspicious in the timing. What difference would it make if they came forward 3 months ago when he got the Republican Nomination.

I think you're right that this is opportunism. But it is opportunism by the women victims, to get justice. Up til now, they've basically had to suck it up that they've been sexually assaulted. Up til now, they (rightly) believed that if they'd made a complaint, they'd have been humiliated yet again, and very likely there would have been no real punishment for Trump... i.e. no justice. Well, the worm has turned and they now have the opportunity to give the Donald some real pain, and they're leaping at that chance.

It's ironic that Trump sold himself as an opportunity to stick it to the Establishment, and in the process he's given his victims the chance to stick it to him.

I think you mean ALLEGEDLY.

Not sure exactly where you want me to put the world "ALLEGEDLY". Presumably you're suggesting that there may be nothing more than allegations to the "sexual assaults". You may be right, but I'm going to invoke Occam's Razor.

Which is more likely...

That several women *were* assaulted by Trump over the years (and therefore the rest of my statement makes sense), or
That these women have chosen to accuse Trump baselessly, presumably in return for some reward. These women would have to be lunatic to do that, but maybe they are, or maybe they've been offered *huge* bribes. And presumably the Democrats are behind this, to undermine Trump's Presidency bid. Well, they would have to be lunatics too... (a) Trump was 11 points behind (i.e. losing hugely), so there's no point, and (b) when the truth inevitably surfaced, they'd lose hugely.

In fact, what about putting odds on it... I have a dollar that says that at least one of these women was sexually assaulted by Trump. What will you put up against that? A dollar? $10? $100? 10 cents?

Rikkitic

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#1651083 14-Oct-2016 14:05

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http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/afternoons/audio/201819830/what-happens-if-trump-loses

An alarming item on RNZ. It is something that has also occurred to me. The way he has defined this election, a lot of very angry people may feel cheated when he loses. He has unleashed forces that may prove uncontrollable, and that is a scary prospect in a country as powerful as the USA.

Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

SaltyNZ

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#1651092 14-Oct-2016 14:12

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Jeeves:

The raid was to gather evidence such as computers etc. The police have to apprehend people in the building as quickly as possible to reduce the risk of disposal or destruction of evidence.

OK, I take your point, but if the police really believe KDC (or anybody, for that matter) sits around all day with some sort of doomsday button remote control in his pocket that he could click and all the data would be instantly vapourised, then they've been watching too many American movies. It just doesn't work like that. Especially since all the servers they wanted to seize were in other countries altogether.

And as far as disposal goes, he could be out-run by a three-legged asthmatic dachshund, so time was not especially of the essence there either, in my opinion.

Firearms, I'll give you, although to expect a professional body-guard (one who was already well known to them) to get into a gun-fight with police is a little far-fetched. He's there to stop idiots from harassing his client, not to mount an Omaha Beach level defense against the government.

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#1651096 14-Oct-2016 14:20

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Rikkitic:

It was ridiculously, idiotically, unjustifiably, over the top, presumably to impress the American masters.

I think it was a quid pro quo for filming The Hobbit in NZ. Let's not forget that *that* required some high-powered Warner Bros studio bosses to fly to Wellington to meet John Key in Oct 2010. KDC raid was Jan 2012.

"You deliver KDC to us (and screw over NZ Actors Equity, and subsidize the film), and we'll spend lots of money in NZ."

Jeeves

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#1651099 14-Oct-2016 14:33

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SaltyNZ:

Jeeves:

The raid was to gather evidence such as computers etc. The police have to apprehend people in the building as quickly as possible to reduce the risk of disposal or destruction of evidence.

OK, I take your point, but if the police really believe KDC (or anybody, for that matter) sits around all day with some sort of doomsday button remote control in his pocket that he could click and all the data would be instantly vapourised, then they've been watching too many American movies. It just doesn't work like that. Especially since all the servers they wanted to seize were in other countries altogether.

And as far as disposal goes, he could be out-run by a three-legged asthmatic dachshund, so time was not especially of the essence there either, in my opinion.

Firearms, I'll give you, although to expect a professional body-guard (one who was already well known to them) to get into a gun-fight with police is a little far-fetched. He's there to stop idiots from harassing his client, not to mount an Omaha Beach level defense against the government.

Eeeee i dunno. It'd be pretty damn easy to setup some kind of script to remove any data. You're right, no one would expect him to be able to delete all the data (Especially when the data centres were raided previous to the mansion raid) - but it's completely impossible for the agencies to have known what data he may have had access to. We're all viewing this from hindsight - the raiding police didn't have that.

Let's compare it to a drug raid. If the cops are raiding a house with a known shed full of hydroponics, lights, weed etc - they don't expect the occupants to destroy that evidence. It's the wad of $100 bills and the little black book providing evidence of supply that they didnt know about that they could flush down the dunny if they're not apprehended quick enough.

It's not so much the protection of the evidence they know about in raids like this, it's the protection of evidence they don't know about that's important.

I agree about the firearms being far fetched, but I don't blame them for taking that precaution. Just need to look at how civil things were when the cops visited Jan Molenaar for a chat and a brew.

networkn

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#1651111 14-Oct-2016 14:48

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frankv:

Not sure exactly where you want me to put the world "ALLEGEDLY". Presumably you're suggesting that there may be nothing more than allegations to the "sexual assaults". You may be right, but I'm going to invoke Occam's Razor.

Which is more likely...

That several women *were* assaulted by Trump over the years (and therefore the rest of my statement makes sense), or
That these women have chosen to accuse Trump baselessly, presumably in return for some reward. These women would have to be lunatic to do that, but maybe they are, or maybe they've been offered *huge* bribes. And presumably the Democrats are behind this, to undermine Trump's Presidency bid. Well, they would have to be lunatics too... (a) Trump was 11 points behind (i.e. losing hugely), so there's no point, and (b) when the truth inevitably surfaced, they'd lose hugely.

In fact, what about putting odds on it... I have a dollar that says that at least one of these women was sexually assaulted by Trump. What will you put up against that? A dollar? $10? $100? 10 cents?

You put ALLEGEDLY in front of every accusation, because until he is proven guilty, these are simply accusations. (and it's entirely possible to do this and not support Trump, or fail to support the accuser) You'll notice the press is careful to do this prior to a conviction because without it, you are suggesting fact when there are no facts in evidence.

I've stated my concerns with these allegations, and I hope for everyone's sakes, they are actually true in all honesty. I am wondering how it's possible to sexually assault someone on an Aeroplane though, whilst seated, without there being witnesses.

I am not sure why you'd feel compelled to gamble on such a thing. I am not stating there isn't truth to these claims, I am saying the timing and nature of these doesn't seem entirely "right" to me, and maybe as more "facts" come to light that may change. I am not betting against you

for the other side of the outcome because I have no vested interest in that side. I am simply raising some concerns. I don't feel satisfied to this moment that the explanations provided here add up to the complete truth.

It worries me somewhat that an accuser is given more "weight" as the person more likely to be telling the truth, than the person being accused.

Fred99

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#1651119 14-Oct-2016 14:55

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Jeeves:

I agree about the firearms being far fetched, but I don't blame them for taking that precaution. Just need to look at how civil things were when the cops visited Jan Molenaar for a chat and a brew.

That's not reason to justify maximum protection in all circumstances. Sometimes they'll get caught out, but if they're expected to arrive in force for every arrest, those who wish to avoid arrest at all costs will arm themselves in expectation.

Mistakes happen the other way too. Some poor mug in Chch at the end of his tether talking to EQC about his earthquake claim used the words "what's a fellow supposed to do - may as well put my gun to my head and shoot myself", Police with full AOS support arrived very quickly, much to his surprise.

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