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  #1526193 5-Apr-2016 09:35
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Rikkitic: Those are valid points. I think the question (which has never been answered) is whether overall harm would be greater, less, or simply shifted. For example, would more cannabis users means less alcohol abuse? Would they cause less trouble due to lower levels of violence when stoned? Would depriving organised criminals of income from illegal cannabis benefit society overall? And so forth. 

 

I think you could be right with the "shifted" harm - if cannabis was more readily available, perhaps people would use other drugs less. But I'm not convinced that legalising cannabis would do much to reduce criminal income in the long term - there might be a period of adjustment but I imagine they would move into other areas (or further into other areas they're already involved in), e.g. P manufacture, and with the effects of P being much worse that could increase the net societal harm.


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  #1526195 5-Apr-2016 09:36
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Geektastic:

 

 

 

Pretty sure that depriving the crims of income would be a good result. 

 

 

 

 

Yes! Which is one of the reasons why decriminalisation is a good idea - it takes away a large revenue stream from the organised criminals.





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  #1526204 5-Apr-2016 09:47
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andrew027:

 

Rikkitic: Those are valid points. I think the question (which has never been answered) is whether overall harm would be greater, less, or simply shifted. For example, would more cannabis users means less alcohol abuse? Would they cause less trouble due to lower levels of violence when stoned? Would depriving organised criminals of income from illegal cannabis benefit society overall? And so forth. 

 

I think you could be right with the "shifted" harm - if cannabis was more readily available, perhaps people would use other drugs less. But I'm not convinced that legalising cannabis would do much to reduce criminal income in the long term - there might be a period of adjustment but I imagine they would move into other areas (or further into other areas they're already involved in), e.g. P manufacture, and with the effects of P being much worse that could increase the net societal harm.

 

 

 

 

Even P could be undercut to a certain extent. Manufacturing amphetamines is easy and cheap for a proper pharmaceutical. We could provide controlled dosages of less harmful variants - ADD/ADHD treatment is literally small doses of a variant of methamphetamine, and it is quite safe in those small amounts. Worst case, the drugs are clean rather than cut with drain cleaner or whatever other crap they put in with it.

 

The point is, there is no way to reduce harm from drug use to 0. There are people who want to take drugs. We cannot make everyone not want to take drugs. As a society we should accept that, and reduce the overall harm as much as possible.





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  #1526224 5-Apr-2016 11:01
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So expert subjective opinion then. 

 

Better than no information but quite focused on health and well being.  The big picture is much wider.  Illegal substances (largely because they are illegal) drive/support a wide range of other problems - theft, murder, assault, intimidation, illegal weapons, contamination of rental properties with toxins etc.

 

Petty crime is the grass of the organised crime food web, the wolves at the top are drug dealers.

 

 

 

Kiwifruta:

The poster of the graph also provided a link to the study which was published in the British Medical Journal.
292 Medical Professionals in Scotland were surveyed, those professionals provided scores (based on their opinion/experience) of the social and personal harm that the 19 drugs did in relation to addicts only, so excluded casual users.

Here is the link again.





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  #1526476 5-Apr-2016 18:46
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SaltyNZ:
Hammerer:

SaltyNZ:


Pretty sure it's not really relevant to the discussion one way or the other.



It is relevant to the context where posters argue to elevate facts over other rhetorical devices. The existence of facts doesn't automatically decide a better solution than other forms of reasoning.



Well, then, Jesus' attitude would be to look after them as sick people deserving of our sympathy; 'what you do for the least of these, you do for me' etc. without necessarily advocating one way or the other on the issue of criminality. He turned water into wine at a party; I think we can safely conclude he was not 100% opposed to the sensible consumption of alcohol.

This particular pope, however, does not support decriminalisation. (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/20/pope-francis-dont-legalise-drugs)


Pretty hard to get alcohol-free grape juice in those times.Not that I'm disagreeing with you.
Still I never read of him being drunk in the scriptures, unlike Noah.

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  #1526484 5-Apr-2016 19:04
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Kiwifruta:
SaltyNZ:
Hammerer:

 

SaltyNZ:

 

 

 

Pretty sure it's not really relevant to the discussion one way or the other.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is relevant to the context where posters argue to elevate facts over other rhetorical devices. The existence of facts doesn't automatically decide a better solution than other forms of reasoning.

 



Well, then, Jesus' attitude would be to look after them as sick people deserving of our sympathy; 'what you do for the least of these, you do for me' etc. without necessarily advocating one way or the other on the issue of criminality. He turned water into wine at a party; I think we can safely conclude he was not 100% opposed to the sensible consumption of alcohol.

This particular pope, however, does not support decriminalisation. (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/20/pope-francis-dont-legalise-drugs)


Pretty hard to get alcohol-free grape juice in those times.Not that I'm disagreeing with you.
Still I never read of him being drunk in the scriptures, unlike Noah.

 

Luke 7:34

 

The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!


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  #1526576 5-Apr-2016 22:08
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Fred99:

Kiwifruta:
SaltyNZ:
Hammerer:


SaltyNZ:


 


Pretty sure it's not really relevant to the discussion one way or the other.


 



 


It is relevant to the context where posters argue to elevate facts over other rhetorical devices. The existence of facts doesn't automatically decide a better solution than other forms of reasoning.




Well, then, Jesus' attitude would be to look after them as sick people deserving of our sympathy; 'what you do for the least of these, you do for me' etc. without necessarily advocating one way or the other on the issue of criminality. He turned water into wine at a party; I think we can safely conclude he was not 100% opposed to the sensible consumption of alcohol.

This particular pope, however, does not support decriminalisation. (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/20/pope-francis-dont-legalise-drugs)


Pretty hard to get alcohol-free grape juice in those times.Not that I'm disagreeing with you.
Still I never read of him being drunk in the scriptures, unlike Noah.


Luke 7:34


The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!



Those were accusations, not evidence of him being a drunk, because He, unlike John, ate and drank with others. John went out to the wilderness and did not eat and drink with others, so they said John had a devil (John 7:33).

So the point being made in verses 33 & 34 was whether Jesus stayed aloof from others, like John, or ate and drank with others, like Jesus did, He would be viewed negatively.





Anyway to link it back to the topic of the thread, drunkeness wasn't socially cool even 2000 years ago in Jewish culture.

 
 
 
 


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  #1526848 6-Apr-2016 11:52
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Geektastic:

Rikkitic:


Those are valid points. I think the question (which has never been answered) is whether overall harm would be greater, less, or simply shifted. For example, would more cannabis users means less alcohol abuse? Would they cause less trouble due to lower levels of violence when stoned? Would depriving organised criminals of income from illegal cannabis benefit society overall? And so forth. 


darned typos 



 


Pretty sure that depriving the crims of income would be a good result. 



What else would they do to generate income?
More prostitution? Human trafficking?

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  #1526879 6-Apr-2016 12:15
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Kiwifruta:

What else would they do to generate income?
More prostitution? Human trafficking?

 

 

 

Sell fizzy drinks to schoolkids.

 

 


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  #1527041 6-Apr-2016 15:18
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Kiwifruta:
Geektastic:

 

Rikkitic:

 

 

 

Those are valid points. I think the question (which has never been answered) is whether overall harm would be greater, less, or simply shifted. For example, would more cannabis users means less alcohol abuse? Would they cause less trouble due to lower levels of violence when stoned? Would depriving organised criminals of income from illegal cannabis benefit society overall? And so forth. 

 

 

 

darned typos 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pretty sure that depriving the crims of income would be a good result. 

 



What else would they do to generate income?
More prostitution? Human trafficking?

 

Organlegging ...

 

Already being done in a vast, clandestine way .... organ replacements for the wealthy ....





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  #1527574 7-Apr-2016 12:13
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Prostitution is already legal.  Those that do get severely exploited are often  addicted to (expensive) illegal drugs ...

 

In other countries, illegal, (expensive) addictive drugs are often the leverage or currency for trafficking.

 

Kiwifruta:

What else would they do to generate income?
More prostitution? Human trafficking?





Mike

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  #1527607 7-Apr-2016 12:58
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MikeAqua:

Prostitution is already legal.  Those that do get severely exploited are often  addicted to (expensive) illegal drugs ...


In other countries, illegal, (expensive) addictive drugs are often the leverage or currency for trafficking.


Kiwifruta:

What else would they do to generate income?
More prostitution? Human trafficking?



So if cannabis were legal would gangs turn to more serious crime to generate income?
We've already mentioned a few, I'd prefer the gangs sold dope than the more serious alternatives.

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  #1527621 7-Apr-2016 13:13
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Kiwifruta: So if cannabis were legal would gangs turn to more serious crime to generate income?
We've already mentioned a few, I'd prefer the gangs sold dope than the more serious alternatives.

 

I would also prefer gangs sold dope than more serious alternatives, but I don't believe them selling dope now precludes them from doing that anyway. I'm sure they'll find something to move on to but that's not a good reason to keep the status quo, in my opinion.




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  #1527635 7-Apr-2016 13:30
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Kiwifruta:

So if cannabis were legal would gangs turn to more serious crime to generate income?
We've already mentioned a few, I'd prefer the gangs sold dope than the more serious alternatives.

 

This is actually a good point but I have always wondered, and still do, why gangs are given so much credibility and respect by authorities here at all. On occasions when they do the responsible thing, as with the carload of gang members that was pushed over a cliff, mayors and police officials fall over themselves expressing praise and gratitude. Why? Gangs are a cancer. They shouldn't be tolerated at all, let alone thanked when they happen to do the right thing. They should be stomped on, eradicated, and driven out of existence. They are not mighty warriors reliving the good old days. They are mostly overweight, out of condition, tobacco smoking heavy drinking drug taking bullies that clump together and intimidate others through violent aggression and force of numbers. They are thugs and criminals and have no place in society.

 

They are already into the more serious alternatives. There are now probably more houses in this country contaminated with meth than not. Gangs need to be deprived of all their sources of income, starting with drugs of all kinds and moving onto every other thing they stick their evil fingers into. They need to be pursued and hounded until they are driven out of existence. There is no place for gangs in a civilised society. Clubs, yes, organised activities to keep kids occupied and engaged, yes, other worthy endeavours, yes, but not gangs in their current form or anything like it.

 

 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  #1527680 7-Apr-2016 14:12
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Cannabis is legal now, so is meth and gangs produce meth.  The penalties are higher for meth (Class A) but as per an earlier post its concentrated and a trained monkey could make it so that is what crims make and sell and therefore what people buy. 

 

We have a meth problem arguably, because prohibition of more labour intensive, less harmful drugs was effective enough to make meth better product.

 

The thing about drugs is the size of the market - people actively seek drugs.

 

Other buyer driven rackets common in overseas jurisdictions are already legal here (gambling, escorts).

 

Other rackets have much a more limited 'market' e.g. extortion - no-one actively seeks to be extorted.

 

Bank robbery maybe?

 

Kiwifruta:

So if cannabis were legal would gangs turn to more serious crime to generate income?
We've already mentioned a few, I'd prefer the gangs sold dope than the more serious alternatives.





Mike

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