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  Reply # 1536580 20-Apr-2016 13:27
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MikeB4:

 


With regards to Methamphetamine my son explained the effects this drug has and its insidious way it will lead the user to requiring more and more very quickly. The details I do recall enough to repeat here but I will ring him later, but it is scary stuff.

 

 

 

 

Still, it can be controlled. As a psychologist, your son would know that. ADD/ADHD drugs are, essentially, controlled doses of amphetamines. Users are closely monitored, and controls on how often repeat prescriptions can be filled are very tight. They're also basically free due to Pharmac, which should go a long way towards showing that legalised versions of such substances won't necessarily be more expensive than black-market ones.





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  Reply # 1536611 20-Apr-2016 13:34
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MikeB4:

 

If we had two referenda for a flag we should definitely have one for something paradigm shifting and social impact as changing our drug laws.

 

 

 

 

Not really - the flag was a simple issue, decriminalising narcotics (NOT "legalising") is complex and very important.  The flag was an emotional issue for many people - and the emotional argument won on the day.  The debate about decriminalisation of narcotics should avoid emotion and all the other usual human garbage that could cause a split along irrational lines. Even some of the religious nutters would want to oppose deciminalisation, they'd find some quote to "prove" that the invisible man in the sky feels one way or another about it.

 

First off, you'd need to "undo" 50+ years of absolute propaganda by the "war on drugs" lobby.

 

The only reason I'd see for a referendum is if under expert advice, our politicians still couldn't make a decision.  That's likely IMO - there's no doubt that the "change" in legislation could result in someone being harmed - who arguably wouldn't have been harmed if the laws hadn't been changed.  The "big picture" that many more would be saved won't stop zealots from hanging wreaths and waving banners saying "told you so" around progressive politician's necks.  Nobody wants that.

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1536624 20-Apr-2016 13:45
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MikeB4:
With regards to Methamphetamine my son explained the effects this drug has and its insidious way it will lead the user to requiring more and more very quickly. The details I do recall enough to repeat here but I will ring him later, but it is scary stuff.

 

 

I don't think methamphetamine use results in physical dependence as occurs with opiates and alcohol.  But yes - it's scary stuff.

 

People determined to use don't seem to be put off by the facts that it's illegal, expensive, and very physically harmful.  I'd rather see it dispensed to them free under medical supervision - with rehabilitation the goal - as opposed to a grim reality that at the present there's nothing in place to help them at all, and that many resort to crime, they all rely on contact with crime syndicates to buy the stuff.  Remove fear of prosecution - and then at least users who recognise that they've got a serious health problem can get appropriate treatment - rather than risk being thrown in a  prison cell.


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  Reply # 1536625 20-Apr-2016 13:46
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MikeB4:

gzt:
tdgeek:


Fred99:


 


SJB:


 


MikeAqua:


 


I see reported on Paul Henry today a survey that says 75% of users in NZ can access P within an hour.


 



 


I think you got that the wrong way round.


 


While I was watching the programme the final results were 20% could access P within an hour and 80% couldn't.


 



 


 


 


Well you got something the wrong way around - that's for sure.


 


The figure is 76% actually - of users in Auckland and Christchurch who can obtain methamphetamine within one hour.


 


The Paul Henry interview was with Dr Paul Wilkins from Massey University.


 


The data is from: "The Illicit Drug Monitoring System (IDMS) is conducted annually to provide a 'snapshot' of illegal drug use and drug related harm in New Zealand."  The report is here.


 


It's about 400 pages long.  I haven't read it.  It's a bit sad (IMO) that Paul Henry - who's always struck me as being so opinionated and with a clear agenda to promote himself and his own point of view first - was the one to pick up on this story.  OTOH, treating serious issues as light entertainment seems to be the way media in NZ has become.


 



 


If a user of anything, can only be a user if he/she has a supply, so off course almost 100% of them can get their fix, and 76% within 60 minutes. That doesnt really sound odd at all. Is it a standard piece of information that is not surprising, being used for a news story?


 


 



I think there is a bit of a meth panic going on. A user is not the same as an addict.

That said, the meth users I come into contact with now and then can be fairly irritating. Everything has to be super fast or they cannot pay attention to it yada yada so they move on to something else yada yada. I suspect these might be the fairly intoxicated ones.

That said, some espresso coffee users can be just as bad. Anyone measured the dopamine release from espresso? ; ).


 


I agree to a point, I take a powerful pain drug, for security reasons I am not going to name it,  some users will become addicted quite easily others not. I was monitored closely by my specialists when I first started using it to watch for problems. I can go for weeks using it every day then for weeks without using it and have no problems. So with addiction one rule covering all does not apply.

With regards to Methamphetamine my son explained the effects this drug has and its insidious way it will lead the user to requiring more and more very quickly. The details I do recall enough to repeat here but I will ring him later, but it is scary stuff.


I expect this is the typical tolerance cycle associated with most drugs but worse in the smokable meth case and especially worse for users that use a lot. The research shows the smokable meth form creates a really strong release at one time so is particularly bad for this.

All the same I think there are very strong elements of drug panic in our approach to meth issues.

In relation to crack cocaine for instance, crack babies, were largely a myth created by many factors but mainly crack panic.

We seem prepared to throw nearly endless resources at enforcement, but we spend virtually nothing for education. In fact, we have no idea how to do education on these things. That topic needs some serious research.

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  Reply # 1536628 20-Apr-2016 13:51
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SaltyNZ:

 

MikeB4:

 


With regards to Methamphetamine my son explained the effects this drug has and its insidious way it will lead the user to requiring more and more very quickly. The details I do recall enough to repeat here but I will ring him later, but it is scary stuff.

 

 

 

 

Still, it can be controlled. As a psychologist, your son would know that. ADD/ADHD drugs are, essentially, controlled doses of amphetamines. Users are closely monitored, and controls on how often repeat prescriptions can be filled are very tight. They're also basically free due to Pharmac, which should go a long way towards showing that legalised versions of such substances won't necessarily be more expensive than black-market ones.

 

 

 

 

Yes and there are checks balances etc etc , recreation users will not and do not have that and I am not convinced that there will be this in place should they be decriminalized. As for recreation users having Pharmac funded drugs and test hmmm that's a tall order and I would bet parts of my anatomy that the guys in the Beehive would not approve it. Pharmac's budget is tight for treatments for illness and that is going to worsen with TPPA. 





Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1536652 20-Apr-2016 14:14
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MikeB4:

 

 

 

Yes and there are checks balances etc etc , recreation users will not and do not have that and I am not convinced that there will be this in place should they be decriminalized. As for recreation users having Pharmac funded drugs and test hmmm that's a tall order and I would bet parts of my anatomy that the guys in the Beehive would not approve it. Pharmac's budget is tight for treatments for illness and that is going to worsen with TPPA. 

 

 

 

 

I imagine different drugs will be handled differently. Cannabis, for example, could probably just be completely legalised as all the evidence seems to suggest it's not that harmful - in fact, much less so than drugs that are already legal. The more dangerous addictions like opiates and amphetamines I expect would be managed more on a cut-down-to-zero long term program basis.

 

Individuals may never actually get to zero, but I do not mean to suggest we would hand out heroin, cocaine and P like lollies for people to have fun with. We would manage them to keep them on the lowest, cleanest, safest dosages and chemical substitutes we could. Even if it costs the tax payer $50 a tablet once you factor in all the costs, surely that's still a long term net win compared to the potentially hundreds of thousands it costs to deal with career criminals and the victims of their crimes.





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  Reply # 1536668 20-Apr-2016 14:35
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SaltyNZ:

 

MikeB4:

 

 

 

Yes and there are checks balances etc etc , recreation users will not and do not have that and I am not convinced that there will be this in place should they be decriminalized. As for recreation users having Pharmac funded drugs and test hmmm that's a tall order and I would bet parts of my anatomy that the guys in the Beehive would not approve it. Pharmac's budget is tight for treatments for illness and that is going to worsen with TPPA. 

 

 

 

 

I imagine different drugs will be handled differently. Cannabis, for example, could probably just be completely legalised as all the evidence seems to suggest it's not that harmful - in fact, much less so than drugs that are already legal. The more dangerous addictions like opiates and amphetamines I expect would be managed more on a cut-down-to-zero long term program basis.

 

Individuals may never actually get to zero, but I do not mean to suggest we would hand out heroin, cocaine and P like lollies for people to have fun with. We would manage them to keep them on the lowest, cleanest, safest dosages and chemical substitutes we could. Even if it costs the tax payer $50 a tablet once you factor in all the costs, surely that's still a long term net win compared to the potentially hundreds of thousands it costs to deal with career criminals and the victims of their crimes.

 

 

 

 

Many good points, and a far cry from earlier posts in this thread about the topic, which is finally good to see


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  Reply # 1536671 20-Apr-2016 14:39
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SaltyNZ:

 

MikeB4:

 

 

 

Yes and there are checks balances etc etc , recreation users will not and do not have that and I am not convinced that there will be this in place should they be decriminalized. As for recreation users having Pharmac funded drugs and test hmmm that's a tall order and I would bet parts of my anatomy that the guys in the Beehive would not approve it. Pharmac's budget is tight for treatments for illness and that is going to worsen with TPPA. 

 

 

 

 

I imagine different drugs will be handled differently. Cannabis, for example, could probably just be completely legalised as all the evidence seems to suggest it's not that harmful - in fact, much less so than drugs that are already legal. The more dangerous addictions like opiates and amphetamines I expect would be managed more on a cut-down-to-zero long term program basis.

 

Individuals may never actually get to zero, but I do not mean to suggest we would hand out heroin, cocaine and P like lollies for people to have fun with. We would manage them to keep them on the lowest, cleanest, safest dosages and chemical substitutes we could. Even if it costs the tax payer $50 a tablet once you factor in all the costs, surely that's still a long term net win compared to the potentially hundreds of thousands it costs to deal with career criminals and the victims of their crimes.

 

 

 

 

Marijuana is on a level with Tobacco Cigarettes (these would never be allowed if they were coming on the market now) however it's affects on exacerbating psychiatric illnesses is documented.  As for it leading to the use of harder drugs

 

the evidence for that is inconclusive at best.

 

If marijuana is decriminalized which I believe it will be there needs to be controls on where it can be used, when it can be used and by whom. There needs to be better detection and testing especially for such things as driving under the influence. This should not be an after thought but in place from day one.

 

As a person who has to take medication daily I just cannot see why someone would chose to do it when they are perfectly healthy.

 

 





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1536686 20-Apr-2016 14:49
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MikeB4:

 

 

 

As a person who has to take medication daily I just cannot see why someone would chose to do it when they are perfectly healthy.

 

 

 

 

Me neither. I've been to parties where I could have had some weed for no more trouble than taking it as it was offered around, but I've never felt the need. I've been drunk exactly twice in my life; once on my bucks night, and once the week before my bucks night. But, you know, I've never felt the need to run a marathon or scuba-dive the Great Barrier Reef either. Maybe I'm just boring. :-)





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  Reply # 1536704 20-Apr-2016 15:01
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I am a product of the 70's, my youth was the 70's and 80's and yes I tried pot maybe twice and hated it. I never tried or wanted to try anything harder although it seemed to be readily available. I used to smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol however when I was diagnosed with the condition(s) I have I stopped drinking and smoking. I wanted to give the my body and the medications the best chance of coping.

 

Unfortunately I did run marathons, climbed the mountains around here, did water skiing etc etc but alas that is gone but the memories live on in a I believe sharp and positive mind.

 

We were always open and honest with our sons regarding drug and alcohol use and talked freely with them about it, only one tried it once the other two never and I believe them. That I think is the key, don't make drugs a mystery that is like a red rag to bull for a teenager. Talk to them about ones own experience and be honest and be honest about it effects.  The best educators are parents or should be.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1536839 20-Apr-2016 16:30
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Fred99:

 

The only reason I'd see for a referendum is if under expert advice, our politicians still couldn't make a decision. 

 

 

I strongly disagree... essentially it's saying that the collective wisdom of 2 or so million NZers isn't as good as the collective wisdom of 120 of them. That people shouldn't be allowed to vote or have a voice on anything important (but trivia like a flag is OK).

 

Give the people the information and let them decide.

 

 


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  Reply # 1536843 20-Apr-2016 16:34
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MikeB4:

SaltyNZ:


MikeB4:


 


Yes and there are checks balances etc etc , recreation users will not and do not have that and I am not convinced that there will be this in place should they be decriminalized. As for recreation users having Pharmac funded drugs and test hmmm that's a tall order and I would bet parts of my anatomy that the guys in the Beehive would not approve it. Pharmac's budget is tight for treatments for illness and that is going to worsen with TPPA. 



 


I imagine different drugs will be handled differently. Cannabis, for example, could probably just be completely legalised as all the evidence seems to suggest it's not that harmful - in fact, much less so than drugs that are already legal. The more dangerous addictions like opiates and amphetamines I expect would be managed more on a cut-down-to-zero long term program basis.


Individuals may never actually get to zero, but I do not mean to suggest we would hand out heroin, cocaine and P like lollies for people to have fun with. We would manage them to keep them on the lowest, cleanest, safest dosages and chemical substitutes we could. Even if it costs the tax payer $50 a tablet once you factor in all the costs, surely that's still a long term net win compared to the potentially hundreds of thousands it costs to deal with career criminals and the victims of their crimes.



 


Marijuana is on a level with Tobacco Cigarettes (these would never be allowed if they were coming on the market now) however it's affects on exacerbating psychiatric illnesses is documented.  As for it leading to the use of harder drugs


the evidence for that is inconclusive at best.


If marijuana is decriminalized which I believe it will be there needs to be controls on where it can be used, when it can be used and by whom. There needs to be better detection and testing especially for such things as driving under the influence. This should not be an after thought but in place from day one.


As a person who has to take medication daily I just cannot see why someone would chose to do it when they are perfectly healthy.


 



From watching Police Ten Seven type shows based in Australia, roadside drug testing is straightforward. Shouldn't be hard to put cannabis onto the same sort of footing as alcohol in that respect.





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  Reply # 1536844 20-Apr-2016 16:34
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frankv:

 

Fred99:

 

The only reason I'd see for a referendum is if under expert advice, our politicians still couldn't make a decision. 

 

 

I strongly disagree... essentially it's saying that the collective wisdom of 2 or so million NZers isn't as good as the collective wisdom of 120 of them. That people shouldn't be allowed to vote or have a voice on anything important (but trivia like a flag is OK).

 

Give the people the information and let them decide.

 

 

 

 

Absolutely, this is the type of issue referenda should be used for. Collective decision making, collective responsibility.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1536845 20-Apr-2016 16:36
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Geektastic:
MikeB4:

 

SaltyNZ:

 

 

 

MikeB4:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes and there are checks balances etc etc , recreation users will not and do not have that and I am not convinced that there will be this in place should they be decriminalized. As for recreation users having Pharmac funded drugs and test hmmm that's a tall order and I would bet parts of my anatomy that the guys in the Beehive would not approve it. Pharmac's budget is tight for treatments for illness and that is going to worsen with TPPA. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I imagine different drugs will be handled differently. Cannabis, for example, could probably just be completely legalised as all the evidence seems to suggest it's not that harmful - in fact, much less so than drugs that are already legal. The more dangerous addictions like opiates and amphetamines I expect would be managed more on a cut-down-to-zero long term program basis.

 

 

 

Individuals may never actually get to zero, but I do not mean to suggest we would hand out heroin, cocaine and P like lollies for people to have fun with. We would manage them to keep them on the lowest, cleanest, safest dosages and chemical substitutes we could. Even if it costs the tax payer $50 a tablet once you factor in all the costs, surely that's still a long term net win compared to the potentially hundreds of thousands it costs to deal with career criminals and the victims of their crimes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Marijuana is on a level with Tobacco Cigarettes (these would never be allowed if they were coming on the market now) however it's affects on exacerbating psychiatric illnesses is documented.  As for it leading to the use of harder drugs

 

 

 

the evidence for that is inconclusive at best.

 

 

 

If marijuana is decriminalized which I believe it will be there needs to be controls on where it can be used, when it can be used and by whom. There needs to be better detection and testing especially for such things as driving under the influence. This should not be an after thought but in place from day one.

 

 

 

As a person who has to take medication daily I just cannot see why someone would chose to do it when they are perfectly healthy.

 

 

 

 

 



From watching Police Ten Seven type shows based in Australia, roadside drug testing is straightforward. Shouldn't be hard to put cannabis onto the same sort of footing as alcohol in that respect.

 

 

 

 

 

There will be folks here vastly more qualified than me on this one but I believe that the road side drug testing is somewhat in its infancy and the results inconsistent.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 




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  Reply # 1536861 20-Apr-2016 16:54
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I have somewhat mixed feelings about referenda. In principle, I believe in them and they fit my ideas about democracy and personal responsibility. At the same time, I am sensitive to the risk of emotional and uninformed decision-making by the unwashed masses. I have been going back and forth on this since it was raised here and I'm still not sure. A problem for me is that I don't have a whole lot of confidence in the decision-making qualities of our politicians. On something this important, I would want to see a process that actually looked at all the evidence as dispassionately as possible and came up with an informed result not influenced by prejudice, lobby groups, emotion or special interests. Is that even possible?

 

 

 

    





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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