They lost the war on drugs

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Reply # 1545671 2-May-2016 23:43

gzt: It seems the big attraction for sportspeople is this is a recreational option that does not show on the drug tests.

Once again, another example where changing the criminal status of marijuana could result in less harm.

It is somewhat obvious that recreational drug use is extremely common and we are currently sticking our heads in the sand a bit.

I don't think the warriors were mixing opiates with energy drinks. For starters, they'd be at grave risk of being pinged in anti-doping tests. Was reported as "sleeping pills", and I'd wager that they could get prescriptions for sleeping pills like zaleplon reasonably readily due to their jobs, dealing with jet lag etc.

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Reply # 1545683 3-May-2016 02:05

gzt: but then I had not even heard of this prior to the warriors thing.

Umm sonny Bill Williams did exactly that during a world cup

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Reply # 1545684 3-May-2016 02:09

Rudster:
gzt: What exactly is the stuff that the warriors and others were/are mixing with energy drinks?

Is it the oxycontin type stuff or something else entirely?

It was Oxycontin and Tramadol.

Wow Where did you hear that from?

tdgeek

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Reply # 1545723 3-May-2016 07:16

testha:

tdgeek:

MikeAqua:

Prohibition is such an expensive failure, I no longer see the point of it ... 'drugs' have always been used, will always be used. Prohibition seems to support an entire ecosystem of illegal activity, propped up by the high value and clandestine nature of prohibited drugs.

Are we wise to continue spend up large on ultimately ineffective enforcement of prohibition law?

Or should we spend money on dealing with harm resulting from drug use?

I dont see the issue

Everything that is prohibited, has lawbreakers. Murder, rape, assaults, robbery. This means that every single criminal law is a failure. They aren't. The drug laws are no different. The war on drugs is just a political statement made decades ago by a politician. This just happens to be the flavour of the moment, nothing more

Lol, you cant be serious.

Every crime you mention leaves another person hurt or even worse dead. This has nothing to do with the wrong criminalization of drug use that is mostly a mental health issue.

Who do I hurt when I smoke a joint on my deck after a long day? Do I deserve to go to prison for doing so? What about drinking a beer instead?

If you bothered to read the thread, you would note the common comments of the war in drugs, how it has failed. If you bothered ti read my post you would see that drug law and its success or failure is a fallacy, its no different to the failures that apparently exist for every crime, thereby making that comment a fallacy. There is no war on drugs and there is no failure of the current law.

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Reply # 1545726 3-May-2016 07:23

Rudster:

tdgeek:

MikeAqua:

Prohibition is such an expensive failure, I no longer see the point of it ... 'drugs' have always been used, will always be used. Prohibition seems to support an entire ecosystem of illegal activity, propped up by the high value and clandestine nature of prohibited drugs.

Are we wise to continue spend up large on ultimately ineffective enforcement of prohibition law?

Or should we spend money on dealing with harm resulting from drug use?

I dont see the issue

Everything that is prohibited, has lawbreakers. Murder, rape, assaults, robbery. This means that every single criminal law is a failure. They aren't. The drug laws are no different. The war on drugs is just a political statement made decades ago by a politician. This just happens to be the flavour of the moment, nothing more

I keep seeing this argument relating drug use to rape and murder. Saying that people are always going to do it of which yes, a small proportion of the population will rape and murder. But in saying this you're implying that even though the laws do not eradicate such actions, it does not mean we should legalize. Which is again true. But to relate that to drug use and abuse is wrong. It shows that fundamentally you believe someone who smokes pot or does other drugs are just as bad as murderers.

That is rubbish. I am relate g it to the many comments that the drug laws have failed. In as far as, all laws have therefore failed. To argue that the drug laws have failed, so we need an alternative is IMHO invalid.

None the less, here is the strongest argument for legalizing drugs. As witnessed across nations that have at least decriminalized drugs, they have seen a reduce in other more horrid crimes like theft, rape and murder. We know there is a strong collation between the recreational drug use of illegal substances and theft. People steal to fund their drug addiction. Another thing to note, Violence from crimes is often driven by drug use or more, failed drug dealings. Because criminals cant go up to the courts and say this man scammed me out of $20,000 worth of cocaine, they settle the issue with violence. What I am saying is to decriminalize drug use and to support those addicted to drugs with cheap, safe prescriptions and or alternatives, we would see a reduction in more horrid crimes like theft and murder.

Thats quite possible to a small degree. I agree. I also feel its a small facet of the drug trade. In making all manner of drugs cheap, legal, it will allow many users and new users to get into drugs, and use as much as they like, awesome. Not in my opinion. Booze is a legal drug, it was a failure when illegal, and also when legal, as to the damage it causes.

The current drug laws are much like a university student who knows he needs to complete his thesis. He has good intentions to get it done but other than the odd crack down on it, he leaves it in his bag, trying not to think about it. As time ticks by, the impending issue grows in its severity. He knows if he doesn't start, he will fail it. He knows the end point. If he works on it, he doesn't know if he will pass or fail. If he has enough time and resources to combat the issue. On one hand he could fix it, he could try working hard on it. On the other hand, it is just easier to do as he has always done and just accept the consequences.

Society is like this student, Except a large proportion of us have decided we do not believe any other way will work so what is the point? This is again much like the global warming issue. A lot of people think, even if it is true, we're probably too late anyway and so what is the point in trying to fix something that we do no believe we can fix?

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Reply # 1545731 3-May-2016 07:27

Rudster:

Question considering the abuse of prescription drugs are now in the news (And this hits home for me because it is the exact same issue I wen't down)

What is your opinion on what we should do to stop the abuse of legal drugs? Consuming opioid medication along with alcohol and or energy drinks? Should we make it illegal to use pain killers with other drugs like alcohol or caffeine? how far do we go? ban coffee? or do we open a discussion and actually try to take both sides of the issue?

Something New Zealand media is really bad at is discussing an issue from more than their side. It seems the only issue they're willing to take both sides on is speeding and whether 5km's over the limit is warrant for a ticket. But when it comes to issues like this, It is just a strict "drugs are bad, Cops need to do more about it"

Stopping the abuse of legal drugs is a problem. I agree. Alcohol is the obvious one. To add a few more flavours to the mix isn't a great idea.

And a discussion with both sides of the issue? This is what I see in this thread, if someone doesnt agree with pro drug laws, thats the common comment. You are discussing prop drug laws, I am discussing anti drug laws, whats the problem? Its a discussion

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Reply # 1545733 3-May-2016 07:32

Rudster:

gzt:
Rudster:

What is your opinion on what we should do to stop the abuse of legal drugs? Consuming opioid medication along with alcohol and or energy drinks? Should we make it illegal to use pain killers with other drugs like alcohol or caffeine? how far do we go? ban coffee? or do we open a discussion and actually try to take both sides of the issue?

I'm not at all convinced that the widespread prescription of opioid painkillers is medically justified.

These drugs were introduced to the market (the market is medical professionals) by pharmaceutical companies saying they were a fundamentally new form and essentially non-addictive. That turned out not to be the case. Under a big pile of evidence the pharma firms changed the marketing to avoid legal action.

Probably the prescribing is trending down in sensible countries like NZ but that is just a guess. (@NZtechfreak)

From my experience, Drugs like Morphine and Oxy are not handed out like lollies. They're highly controlled and only given when absolutely necessary. for example broken bones or kidney stones. Tramadol on the otherhand is far less powerful compared to the other two and so is prescribed when drugs like paracetamol or brufen lack the strength. For example I was on 800mg's or brufen (pure nurefen) twice daily to deal with migraines. they ended up losing their effect but tramadol was prescribed to help where normal drugs could not. Now the important thing to note about Tramadol is that it was developed to have a low limit. The dangers of tramadol are actually very high. A standard dose is 50-100mg's while a dose of 300mg's is enough to cause seizures and kill someone. Oxy and morphine will provide more of a "high" before reaching a dangerous level which is the reason why tramadol is so regularly prescribed. The issue at play here is caffeine and alcohol mixed with tramadol induce more of a high without drastically increasing the risk of seizures. Putting it in layman's terms, without caffeine (Though I never experienced anything from mixing with energy drinks) or alcohol, the "high" from tramadol is bugger all and if one were to want a high, they either have to mix it with alcohol or move on to something more powerful like Oxy of which in this country, is a lot hard to get. (broken bones or kidney stones needed to get oxy)

So in my opinion, Tramadol is a safe drug from abuse, though addiction is still an issue as people become reliant on it as it does boost your mood, especially for those who suffer from depression.

On a side note, I have not been on any opioids for the last month roughly, have since found my migraines were caused by a heart problem. Of which I take a small dose of Beta blockers to deal with it.

But if I had this issue again, and from my experience, nothing but Tramadol helped, If I was in so much pain like I was and was told I could not have a drug that I know would reduce the pain to a level where I wasnt screaming in agony in bed as it felt like a blender was blending my brain. I would be pretty pissed off. Opioid drugs, even if it can be used recreationally and abused, have a place as they are very powerful at dealing with almost all types of pain. Pain that not all pain killers can help with.

First, sorry to hear of your issues, I hope they improve in time. I feel all here have no issue with medical use of drugs. That they could be used, stolen for the purpose of recreation etc, is a human issue, its what we do, it happens.

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Reply # 1545753 3-May-2016 08:22

If you want a law to compare realistically then alcohol prohibition is the obvious candidate. Some states in India have alcohol prohibition.. Large numbers of people die on a regular basis from illegal alcohol. Gangsters are present, etc, etc.

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Reply # 1545760 3-May-2016 08:34

gzt: If you want a law to compare realistically then alcohol prohibition is the obvious candidate. Some states in India have alcohol prohibition.. Large numbers of people die on a regular basis from illegal alcohol. Gangsters are present, etc, etc.

This isn't India. Not by a long shot. Indians die every year being electrocuted while standing on trains. Alcohol prohibition gave us the bootleg market, legalising it gave us all manner of issues since. If alcohol and drugs are legal, they should be user pays. No free health care. many who dont favour legalising and easy availability of drugs, MJ, coke, etc, etc look at alcohol and its effect on society. Legally produced, and sold drugs, will be sold where? Special stores I assume? Liquor stores would be an obvious outlet. Do we really need that?

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Reply # 1545770 3-May-2016 09:03

tdgeek:

gzt: If you want a law to compare realistically then alcohol prohibition is the obvious candidate. Some states in India have alcohol prohibition.. Large numbers of people die on a regular basis from illegal alcohol. Gangsters are present, etc, etc.

This isn't India. Not by a long shot. Indians die every year being electrocuted while standing on trains. Alcohol prohibition gave us the bootleg market, legalising it gave us all manner of issues since. If alcohol and drugs are legal, they should be user pays. No free health care. many who dont favour legalising and easy availability of drugs, MJ, coke, etc, etc look at alcohol and its effect on society. Legally produced, and sold drugs, will be sold where? Special stores I assume? Liquor stores would be an obvious outlet. Do we really need that?

How much does the tax on alcohol, for example, already contribute to the costs involved?

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Reply # 1545773 3-May-2016 09:12

Maybe the question that should be asked is "Why do people take drugs or alcohol?"

My take on it is that the answer is "Because it is the quickest, cheapest, easiest way to make them feel better (for a while)".

Probing further... "Why do people want to feel better?"

Answer: "Because they don't think their life is good enough".

And I believe that it is this dissatisfaction with life that is the root of many social issues. In some cases, people are correct to be dissatisfied. But I think that the vast majority (including those Warriors players) who don't realise how good they have it.

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Reply # 1545802 3-May-2016 09:45

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frankv:

Maybe the question that should be asked is "Why do people take drugs or alcohol?"

My take on it is that the answer is "Because it is the quickest, cheapest, easiest way to make them feel better (for a while)".

Probing further... "Why do people want to feel better?"

Answer: "Because they don't think their life is good enough".

And I believe that it is this dissatisfaction with life that is the root of many social issues. In some cases, people are correct to be dissatisfied. But I think that the vast majority (including those Warriors players) who don't realise how good they have it.

I think this may be a little too simplistic. Maybe some people don’t take drugs to feel ‘better’ as such, but rather to feel different. In other words, for the experience. Also, it depends on the drug. You can’t just lump them altogether. Different drugs affect people in radically different ways. Many people take certain drugs to achieve different states of consciousness, in other words, to enhance their perceptions, or to seek inspiration and enlightenment. Some see them as religious aids. Some use them to improve performance, for example amphetamines to stay up working all night to meet a deadline. Or maybe just smoke a joint for relaxation. I think people turn to drugs for many different reasons, some worthier than others. But even if they are only used for recreational purposes, what is the problem with that as long as it doesn’t cause other problems? People go to the beach because it is a fun and different break from the daily routine. Some take drugs for the same reason.

I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage

frankv

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Reply # 1545868 3-May-2016 11:07

Rikkitic:

frankv:

Maybe the question that should be asked is "Why do people take drugs or alcohol?"

My take on it is that the answer is "Because it is the quickest, cheapest, easiest way to make them feel better (for a while)".

Probing further... "Why do people want to feel better?"

Answer: "Because they don't think their life is good enough".

And I believe that it is this dissatisfaction with life that is the root of many social issues. In some cases, people are correct to be dissatisfied. But I think that the vast majority (including those Warriors players) who don't realise how good they have it.

I think this may be a little too simplistic. Maybe some people don’t take drugs to feel ‘better’ as such, but rather to feel different. In other words, for the experience. Also, it depends on the drug. You can’t just lump them altogether. Different drugs affect people in radically different ways. Many people take certain drugs to achieve different states of consciousness, in other words, to enhance their perceptions, or to seek inspiration and enlightenment. Some see them as religious aids. Some use them to improve performance, for example amphetamines to stay up working all night to meet a deadline. Or maybe just smoke a joint for relaxation. I think people turn to drugs for many different reasons, some worthier than others. But even if they are only used for recreational purposes, what is the problem with that as long as it doesn’t cause other problems? People go to the beach because it is a fun and different break from the daily routine. Some take drugs for the same reason.

Right. I hadn't thought about the performance-enhancing aspect, nor the enhanced perception. But I think it still applies... you take amphetamines to work all night because you feel that your unassisted performance isn't good enough. You feel your natural perceptions aren't good enough, so you need to enhance them. But why do people prefer drugs to going to the beach? (Apart from, because they're irrational.)

I'm not saying that recreational or other uses of drugs are wrong (clearly, medical use is acceptable); just that some of us (perhaps wrongly) feel constrained to live a lifestyle which makes them dissatisfied, and then need to escape that in some way. Clamping down on the escapes or not shouldn't be the issue. The issue should be about fixing what we're trying to escape.

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Reply # 1545908 3-May-2016 11:35

joker97:
Rudster:

gzt: What exactly is the stuff that the warriors and others were/are mixing with energy drinks?

Is it the oxycontin type stuff or something else entirely?

It was Oxycontin and Tramadol.

Wow Where did you hear that from?

I watched multiple news articles on it, one of them mentioned tramadol and oxy. Though there has been little talk about what they used and more the fact they abused prescription pain killers.

Rudster

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Reply # 1545913 3-May-2016 11:38

tdgeek:

Rudster:

Question considering the abuse of prescription drugs are now in the news (And this hits home for me because it is the exact same issue I wen't down)

What is your opinion on what we should do to stop the abuse of legal drugs? Consuming opioid medication along with alcohol and or energy drinks? Should we make it illegal to use pain killers with other drugs like alcohol or caffeine? how far do we go? ban coffee? or do we open a discussion and actually try to take both sides of the issue?

Something New Zealand media is really bad at is discussing an issue from more than their side. It seems the only issue they're willing to take both sides on is speeding and whether 5km's over the limit is warrant for a ticket. But when it comes to issues like this, It is just a strict "drugs are bad, Cops need to do more about it"

Stopping the abuse of legal drugs is a problem. I agree. Alcohol is the obvious one. To add a few more flavours to the mix isn't a great idea.

And a discussion with both sides of the issue? This is what I see in this thread, if someone doesnt agree with pro drug laws, thats the common comment. You are discussing prop drug laws, I am discussing anti drug laws, whats the problem? Its a discussion

First I was talking about discussion by the media in the public eye. All that happens is the media asks the police if drugs are bad, police say drugs are bad. Then it is left like that.

Oh and the issue is not stopping the use but reducing the harm of use. If you could take a pill that all it did was make you happy, no side effect, what is the problem? Reducing the harm of drugs is a much bigger issue than trying to stop the use of drugs. You're not going to stop the use of drugs.

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