Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


Filter this topic showing only the reply marked as answer View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | ... | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 | ... | 45
81 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 17


  Reply # 1545920 3-May-2016 11:48
Send private message

tdgeek:

 

Rudster:

 

tdgeek:

 

MikeAqua:

 

Prohibition is such an expensive failure, I no longer see the point of it ... 'drugs' have always been used, will always be used.  Prohibition seems to support an entire ecosystem of illegal activity, propped up by the high value and clandestine nature of prohibited drugs.

 

Are we wise to continue spend up large on ultimately ineffective enforcement of prohibition law? 

 

Or should we spend money on dealing with harm resulting from drug use?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I dont see the issue

 

 

 

Everything that is prohibited, has lawbreakers. Murder, rape, assaults, robbery. This means that every single criminal law is a failure. They aren't. The drug laws are no different. The war on drugs is just a political statement made decades ago by a politician. This just happens to be the flavour of the moment, nothing more 

 

 

 

 

I keep seeing this argument relating drug use to rape and murder. Saying that people are always going to do it of which yes, a small proportion of the population will rape and murder. But in saying this you're implying that even though the laws do not eradicate such actions, it does not mean we should legalize. Which is again true. But to relate that to drug use and abuse is wrong. It shows that fundamentally you believe someone who smokes pot or does other drugs are just as bad as murderers. 

 

That is rubbish. I am relate g it to the many comments that the drug laws have failed. In as far as, all laws have therefore failed. To argue that the drug laws have failed, so we need an alternative is IMHO invalid.

 

 

 

None the less, here is the strongest argument for legalizing drugs. As witnessed across nations that have at least decriminalized drugs, they have seen a reduce in other more horrid crimes like theft, rape and murder. We know there is a strong collation between the recreational drug use of illegal substances and theft. People steal to fund their drug addiction. Another thing to note, Violence from crimes is often driven by drug use or more, failed drug dealings. Because criminals cant go up to the courts and say this man scammed me out of $20,000 worth of cocaine, they settle the issue with violence. What I am saying is to decriminalize drug use and to support those addicted to drugs with cheap, safe prescriptions and or alternatives, we would see a reduction in more horrid crimes like theft and murder.

 

Thats quite possible to a small degree. I agree. I also feel its a small facet of the drug trade. In making all manner of drugs cheap, legal, it will allow many users and new users  to get into drugs, and use as much as they like, awesome. Not in my opinion. Booze is a legal drug, it was a failure when illegal, and also when legal, as to the damage it causes. 

 

 

 

The current drug laws are much like a university student who knows he needs to complete his thesis. He has good intentions to get it done but other than the odd crack down on it, he leaves it in his bag, trying not to think about it. As time ticks by, the impending issue grows in its severity. He knows if he doesn't start, he will fail it. He knows the end point. If he works on it, he doesn't know if he will pass or fail. If he has enough time and resources to combat the issue. On one hand he could fix it, he could try working hard on it. On the other hand, it is just easier to do as he has always done and just accept the consequences.

 

Society is like this student, Except a large proportion of us have decided we do not believe any other way will work so what is the point? This is again much like the global warming issue. A lot of people think, even if it is true, we're probably too late anyway and so what is the point in trying to fix something that we do no believe we can fix?

 

 

 

 

 

But you're relating the method of dealing with serious crime with a health issue that has a detrimental issue to society. Theft and murder, directly target the community. Drug use targets oneself. For that very reason, it opens up other methods to combat drug use.

 

 

 

Also the driving force for legalizing drug use in America was due to violent crime caused by the illegal drug industry. It is not a small issue, A large proportion of murders and violence when falling under the bracket of gangs is in fact related to drugs. To remove that power from gangs would be to castrait gangs of their power over the community. 

 

On your comment about legal drugs leading to greater drug use, you're forgetting that people have the ability to make their own logical decisions. Yes more people will try drugs, some will have a small impact on society and some a larger effect. However while I am advocating for the legalization of drugs, I am now advocating to dish it out like lollies. The average person knows drugs are bad, even if drugs were made legal, the average person would not go down to their local dairy and pick up some meth to just try it. The average person will not do drugs and that social pressure is a great method of combating drug use. We see it with tobacco. A large proportion of smokers are quiting because of social pressure. The issue is what is the lesser of two evils? When it came to alcohol, illegal use lead to huge problems of violence and abuse which when related to current issues with alcohol abuse, they were greater in their severity. Same logic can be used with drugs. While legalizing drugs will lead to greater drug use in the community, it also opens up dialogue between doctors and drug users. It also reduces the impact of crim on the community through gang related activities. I am arguing a progressive approach to drugs, much like Portugal would have a reduced impact on the community than the current proactive aggressive method.


1685 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 311

Trusted

  Reply # 1545924 3-May-2016 11:52
Send private message

frankv:

 

Right. I hadn't thought about the performance-enhancing aspect, nor the enhanced perception. But I think it still applies... you take amphetamines to work all night because you feel that your unassisted performance isn't good enough. You feel your natural perceptions aren't good enough, so you need to enhance them. But why do people prefer drugs to going to the beach? (Apart from, because they're irrational.)

 

I'm not saying that recreational or other uses of drugs are wrong (clearly, medical use is acceptable); just that some of us (perhaps wrongly) feel constrained to live a lifestyle which makes them dissatisfied, and then need to escape that in some way. Clamping down on the escapes or not shouldn't be the issue. The issue should be about fixing what we're trying to escape.

 

 

 

Sleep. Far better than any OTC or prescribed script I have used in the past. And no hangover ...





My thoughts are no longer my own and is probably representative of our media-controlled government


 
 
 
 


Try Wrike: fast, easy, and efficient project collaboration software
81 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 17


  Reply # 1545925 3-May-2016 11:53
Send private message

tdgeek:

 

gzt: If you want a law to compare realistically then alcohol prohibition is the obvious candidate. Some states in India have alcohol prohibition.. Large numbers of people die on a regular basis from illegal alcohol. Gangsters are present, etc, etc.

 

This isn't India. Not by a long shot. Indians die every year being electrocuted while standing on trains. Alcohol prohibition gave us the bootleg market, legalising it gave us all manner of issues since. If alcohol and drugs are legal, they should be user pays. No free health care. many who dont favour legalising and easy availability of drugs, MJ, coke, etc, etc look at alcohol and its effect on society. Legally produced, and sold drugs, will be sold where? Special stores I assume? Liquor stores would be an obvious outlet. Do we really need that?

 

 

 

 

I disagree with your fundamental beliefs. Rather than trying to convince you on the forum, Can I ask if you would be willing to read a book? Just to share a different angle to the issue. The Art of Belonging is a great read and I recommend everyone read it to gain an understanding of the force and importance of community and how community used to keep society in check, to a point.

 

 

 

Personally would recommend everyone read that book. Seriously good read.


81 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 17


  Reply # 1545927 3-May-2016 11:56
Send private message

frankv:

 

Maybe the question that should be asked is "Why do people take drugs or alcohol?"

 

My take on it is that the answer is "Because it is the quickest, cheapest, easiest way to make them feel better (for a while)".

 

Probing further... "Why do people want to feel better?"

 

Answer: "Because they don't think their life is good enough".

 

And I believe that it is this dissatisfaction with life that is the root of many social issues. In some cases, people are correct to be dissatisfied. But I think that the vast majority (including those Warriors players) who don't realise how good they have it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You pretty much hit the issue on the head. People do drugs to feel better. Whether it is due to actually leading a sad life or mental illness. People want to find happyness.

 

 

 

Coming from someone who has suffered from depression for a good 6 years and always had a negative interaction with antidepressants. 


gzt

9582 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1400


  Reply # 1545930 3-May-2016 12:10
Send private message

frankv:

Maybe the question that should be asked is "Why do people take drugs or alcohol?"


My take on it is that the answer is "Because it is the quickest, cheapest, easiest way to make them feel better (for a while)".


Probing further... "Why do people want to feel better?"


Answer: "Because they don't think their life is good enough".


And I believe that it is this dissatisfaction with life that is the root of many social issues. In some cases, people are correct to be dissatisfied. But I think that the vast majority (including those Warriors players) who don't realise how good they have it.


 


Most of the uses you mention strike me as being self-medication. I suspect that people who do this regularly are at higher risk of forming a habit which may lead to addiction.

As for the warriors, some articles are indicating energy drinks and prescription pills are a way to get 'drunk' without consuming alcohol. It is implied some sportspeople are tested for alcohol use.

gzt

9582 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1400


  Reply # 1545933 3-May-2016 12:21
Send private message

Rudster: But if I had this issue again, and from my experience, nothing but Tramadol helped, If I was in so much pain like I was and was told I could not have a drug that I know would reduce the pain to a level where I wasnt screaming in agony in bed as it felt like a blender was blending my brain. I would be pretty pissed off. Opioid drugs, even if it can be used recreationally and abused, have a place as they are very powerful at dealing with almost all types of pain. Pain that not all pain killers can help with.

I woke up once with a splitting head pain and honestly 100% belived I had developed brain cancer overnight and I was imminently going to die. It went away after a short time. Able to think clearly again I decided this was unlikely and it was probably a migraine of some kind. It never happened again but I did develop a much greater sympathy for that issue. I'm curious about how your experience was related to a heart issue?

11630 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1995

Trusted

  Reply # 1545934 3-May-2016 12:21
Send private message

Rudster:

 

tdgeek:

 

gzt: If you want a law to compare realistically then alcohol prohibition is the obvious candidate. Some states in India have alcohol prohibition.. Large numbers of people die on a regular basis from illegal alcohol. Gangsters are present, etc, etc.

 

This isn't India. Not by a long shot. Indians die every year being electrocuted while standing on trains. Alcohol prohibition gave us the bootleg market, legalising it gave us all manner of issues since. If alcohol and drugs are legal, they should be user pays. No free health care. many who dont favour legalising and easy availability of drugs, MJ, coke, etc, etc look at alcohol and its effect on society. Legally produced, and sold drugs, will be sold where? Special stores I assume? Liquor stores would be an obvious outlet. Do we really need that?

 

 

 

 

I disagree with your fundamental beliefs. Rather than trying to convince you on the forum, Can I ask if you would be willing to read a book? Just to share a different angle to the issue. The Art of Belonging is a great read and I recommend everyone read it to gain an understanding of the force and importance of community and how community used to keep society in check, to a point.

 

 

 

Personally would recommend everyone read that book. Seriously good read.

 

 

 

 

No one here will be changing their mind. Thats not an issue, after all, its a discussion. There are pros and cons for both sides. The base issue is that if you believe A, that doenst make A right, if I believe B that doesnt make B right. Take global warming, you can watch a doco that is compelling, or one that doesnt support it, also compelling.

 

 

 

As to what is the best tact for drugs, for every pro, there is a con, so its not just a case of legalise it to solve most issues. Alcohol is a prime example. My stance is quite simple, I dont feel we need another 6 products to join alcohol


3951 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1542


  Reply # 1546034 3-May-2016 13:47
One person supports this post
Send private message

Some evidence of how prohibition has failed in relation to drugs:

 

If we look at lifetime use, the 2007/2008 New Zealand Alcohol and Drug Use Survey reported that one in two adults (49.0%) had used drugs (excluding alcohol, tobacco and party pills) for recreational purposes at some point in their lifetime, equating to about 1,292,700 people in the total population aged 16–64 years in New Zealand.
Source page - DrugFoundation

 

A similar argument doesn't apply to murder  .... prohibition works to discourage murder.

 

Further, the illegality of drugs itself incubates a lot of crime. 





Mike

81 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 17


  Reply # 1546087 3-May-2016 15:06
Send private message

gzt:
Rudster: But if I had this issue again, and from my experience, nothing but Tramadol helped, If I was in so much pain like I was and was told I could not have a drug that I know would reduce the pain to a level where I wasnt screaming in agony in bed as it felt like a blender was blending my brain. I would be pretty pissed off. Opioid drugs, even if it can be used recreationally and abused, have a place as they are very powerful at dealing with almost all types of pain. Pain that not all pain killers can help with.

I woke up once with a splitting head pain and honestly 100% belived I had developed brain cancer overnight and I was imminently going to die. It went away after a short time. Able to think clearly again I decided this was unlikely and it was probably a migraine of some kind. It never happened again but I did develop a much greater sympathy for that issue. I'm curious about how your experience was related to a heart issue?

 

 

 

Blood preasure. heart was beating too hard. 160 over 60. Such a high and low blood pressure caused excess pressure on my brain. But that pain you described was what I was dealing with every night.


5798 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2851


  Reply # 1546226 3-May-2016 17:37
One person supports this post
Send private message

Rudster:

 

gzt:
Rudster: But if I had this issue again, and from my experience, nothing but Tramadol helped, If I was in so much pain like I was and was told I could not have a drug that I know would reduce the pain to a level where I wasnt screaming in agony in bed as it felt like a blender was blending my brain. I would be pretty pissed off. Opioid drugs, even if it can be used recreationally and abused, have a place as they are very powerful at dealing with almost all types of pain. Pain that not all pain killers can help with.

I woke up once with a splitting head pain and honestly 100% belived I had developed brain cancer overnight and I was imminently going to die. It went away after a short time. Able to think clearly again I decided this was unlikely and it was probably a migraine of some kind. It never happened again but I did develop a much greater sympathy for that issue. I'm curious about how your experience was related to a heart issue?

 

 

 

Blood preasure. heart was beating too hard. 160 over 60. Such a high and low blood pressure caused excess pressure on my brain. But that pain you described was what I was dealing with every night.

 

 

 

 

I used to get migraines - not BP related though.  Learned to recognise when one was coming on and most of the time I'd be able to deal with it by taking paracetamol and finding a quiet place to lie down - for hours. Worst was in social situations - where there was no polite escape, I'd try to endure.  Mostly a fail, I'd end up puking and incapacitated, if I was lucky I'd find somewhere to lie down - with a bucket handy.  Of course people assumed I'd had too much to drink.  I haven't had a migraine for 20 years now. I'm sure mine were stress related - learned different ways to deal with that and my life changed.  Diet too - I never eat chocolate, anything sweet, avoid sugar and large quantities of starchy foods.  Probably placebo effect - but a working placebo is a good thing.  No drugs (apart from alcohol, coffee etc).  It would be 25 years since I last had a prescription drug for anything.  If they legalise cannabis, I'll use that occasionally - if the quality is good, mellow - not the stuff that whacks you out of your mind.  It's very good for enjoyment of music - oh - and food.  Most musicians I know use it - when performing etc.   I understand the risks (it's not harmless) but reject arguments that anybody else has the right to deny me from doing what I want to do - when it will have no effect on them whatsoever - and is unlikely to cause me any harm compared with other activities I may choose for pleasure, riding motorcycles, geriatric skiing, mountaineering, or sailing my boat.


11630 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1995

Trusted

  Reply # 1546234 3-May-2016 18:07
Send private message

MikeAqua:

 

Some evidence of how prohibition has failed in relation to drugs:

 

If we look at lifetime use, the 2007/2008 New Zealand Alcohol and Drug Use Survey reported that one in two adults (49.0%) had used drugs (excluding alcohol, tobacco and party pills) for recreational purposes at some point in their lifetime, equating to about 1,292,700 people in the total population aged 16–64 years in New Zealand.
Source page - DrugFoundation

 

A similar argument doesn't apply to murder  .... prohibition works to discourage murder.

 

Further, the illegality of drugs itself incubates a lot of crime. 

 

 

 

 

Ok. If they are all legalised. That will create a lot of happy people, reduce crime, and allow the rest of us, including impressionable children to be non affected? Who will produce ecstasy, coke, etc and where will they be sold? I imagine they will be a lot cheaper do more accessible. Who will produce MJ, and where will that be sold? I imagine that will be more expensive, as its cheap now, but by adding GST, compliance costs, setting up a correct production facility will add  greta deal to costs. The criminal sector will I expect, compete with that. 




6816 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 3191

Subscriber

  Reply # 1546241 3-May-2016 18:29
2 people support this post
Send private message

Manufactured drugs aside, Marijuana grows all over this country. The police spend millions trying to stop it. You don't have to do anything to encourage it. Just leave it alone and there will be more than enough for anyone who wants it. Saying this will become more expensive is nonsense. It will be cheaper than ever, maybe even free. Quality control is not an issue, except for pharmaceutical grades. For the rest, people will grow their own without any need for any kind of official involvement whatsoever. It  is a lot, lot easier than brewing your own wine or beer.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


11630 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1995

Trusted

  Reply # 1546265 3-May-2016 19:44
Send private message

So it will be unregulated and free. Unhindered by any Govt involvement over supply, quality, taxes, and so forth. How will the Govt tax it so as to obtain revenue to cater for the fallout? Assuming MJ is legalised so it cannot be sold, then what? It is allowed to be sold? Then you require regulations. Interested in the economics of MJ if it legalised.  Canada has shops I believe as does Colorado. 

 

Remember, it goes beyond me having a plant for myself.


gzt

9582 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1400


  Reply # 1546289 3-May-2016 20:15
Send private message

Colorado allows up to six plants for personal use. These must be grown in a locked enclosure.

I imagine they have similar laws to liquor licensing around the operation of MJ shops. It is legal in the state but individual municipalities can set local rules around opening hours etc.

It will be interesting to see how that will work out. They are guaranteed to have some problems, but I suspect the advantages will win out.

11630 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1995

Trusted

  Reply # 1546327 3-May-2016 21:28
Send private message

gzt: Colorado allows up to six plants for personal use. These must be grown in a locked enclosure.

I imagine they have similar laws to liquor licensing around the operation of MJ shops. It is legal in the state but individual municipalities can set local rules around opening hours etc.

It will be interesting to see how that will work out. They are guaranteed to have some problems, but I suspect the advantages will win out.

 

And the more potent drugs that have been pushed in this thread as well? I guess , liken Cocaine, P, ecstasy to liquor, where sales regulations are more restricted.

 

As someone stated, these drugs are less harmful than alcohol in some cases 


1 | ... | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 | ... | 45
Filter this topic showing only the reply marked as answer View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic



Twitter »

Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:





News »

Amazon launches the International Shopping Experience in the Amazon Shopping App
Posted 19-Apr-2018 08:38


Spark New Zealand and TVNZ to bring coverage of Rugby World Cup 2019
Posted 16-Apr-2018 06:55


How Google can seize Microsoft Office crown
Posted 14-Apr-2018 11:08


How back office transformation drives IRD efficiency
Posted 12-Apr-2018 21:15


iPod laws in a smartphone world: will we ever get copyright right?
Posted 12-Apr-2018 21:13


Lightbox service using big data and analytics to learn more about customers
Posted 9-Apr-2018 12:11


111 mobile caller location extended to iOS
Posted 6-Apr-2018 13:50


Huawei announces the HUAWEI P20 series
Posted 29-Mar-2018 11:41


Symantec Internet Security Threat Report shows increased endpoint technology risks
Posted 26-Mar-2018 18:29


Spark switches on long-range IoT network across New Zealand
Posted 26-Mar-2018 18:22


Stuff Pix enters streaming video market
Posted 21-Mar-2018 09:18


Windows no longer Microsoft’s main focus
Posted 13-Mar-2018 07:47


Why phone makers are obsessed with cameras
Posted 11-Mar-2018 12:25


New Zealand Adopts International Open Data Charter
Posted 3-Mar-2018 12:48


Shipments tumble as NZ phone upgrades slow
Posted 2-Mar-2018 11:48



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.