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Glurp
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  Reply # 1680827 1-Dec-2016 19:14
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Very good observations from a police official and others about the failure of the drugs war and the gutlessness of politicians.

 

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/201826007/the-war-on-drugs-has-been-a-'a-crime-against-humanity'

 

 





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  Reply # 1680850 1-Dec-2016 20:39
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Rikkitic:

 

Very good observations from a police official and others about the failure of the drugs war and the gutlessness of politicians.

 

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/201826007/the-war-on-drugs-has-been-a-'a-crime-against-humanity'

 

 

 

 

I get that. Better that drug users are not in jail, nor wasting time and resources on our health system. So they propose a fix room. 

 

The basis of the article is that drugs are BAD. So, we provide a place to get stoned? 


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1680935 1-Dec-2016 21:34
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tdgeek:

 

Rikkitic:

 

Very good observations from a police official and others about the failure of the drugs war and the gutlessness of politicians.

 

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon/audio/201826007/the-war-on-drugs-has-been-a-'a-crime-against-humanity'

 

 

 

 

I get that. Better that drug users are not in jail, nor wasting time and resources on our health system. So they propose a fix room. 

 

The basis of the article is that drugs are BAD. So, we provide a place to get stoned? 

 

 

More or less. This must have been covered many times already in the thread.

 

Yup - to varying degree, drugs are bad - including some very popular legal ones.

 

People use them regardless anyway, prohibition hasn't worked, so decriminalising and treating drug (ab)use as a medical problem rather than a criminal issue solves one problem, including that of self-harm by drug users (overdose, infection, etc).  That would empty jails.  Side benefit is that it solves the other problem - the true criminality in society from organised crime syndicates and drug users who'll do anything to get money from you and me so that they can give it to gangster dealers. A multi billion $$$ trade in NZ that's only grown under prohibition.


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  Reply # 1680953 1-Dec-2016 22:24
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As if the tax payer would pay for their fix?

They'd still need to turn to crime to support such a money hungry (and often only limited by money) drug habit... having a safe place to do so won't alleviate the criminal nature of the abuser!

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  Reply # 1680966 1-Dec-2016 22:51
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PhantomNVD: As if the tax payer would pay for their fix?

They'd still need to turn to crime to support such a money hungry (and often only limited by money) drug habit... having a safe place to do so won't alleviate the criminal nature of the abuser!

 

 

 

Oh for goodness sake. One way or another you are paying for their fix already - at black market rates charged by gangsters / organised crime.

 

Most narcotics and addictive drugs of abuse are very cheap to produce.  They'd be given them, under medical supervision, with the objective of getting them off drugs.

 

If not, then in those cases nothing lost and much to be gained - at least they wouldn't be burglarising, mugging, and involved in crime to support their habits.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1680994 1-Dec-2016 23:55
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Fred99:

PhantomNVD: As if the tax payer would pay for their fix?

They'd still need to turn to crime to support such a money hungry (and often only limited by money) drug habit... having a safe place to do so won't alleviate the criminal nature of the abuser!


 


Oh for goodness sake. One way or another you are paying for their fix already - at black market rates charged by gangsters / organised crime.


Most narcotics and addictive drugs of abuse are very cheap to produce.  They'd be given them, under medical supervision, with the objective of getting them off drugs.


If not, then in those cases nothing lost and much to be gained - at least they wouldn't be burglarising, mugging, and involved in crime to support their habits.


 


 



So what's stopping them using the 'clean' fix to just supplement their habit?
Will they be released from this 'clean' room with dope still in tgeir bloodstream?
How could they legally be limited?

I'd only see this working in the light of a drug rehab clinic (expensive and already available) or prison situation where there is 24hr control over the users access to the chemicals they are addicted to...

And all this would still be just the opening argument of a population here that is generally far more conservative than you or Rikkitic, @Fred99?

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  Reply # 1681025 2-Dec-2016 08:53
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PhantomNVD:
So what's stopping them using the 'clean' fix to just supplement their habit?
Will they be released from this 'clean' room with dope still in tgeir bloodstream?
How could they legally be limited?

I'd only see this working in the light of a drug rehab clinic (expensive and already available) or prison situation where there is 24hr control over the users access to the chemicals they are addicted to...

And all this would still be just the opening argument of a population here that is generally far more conservative than you or Rikkitic, @Fred99?

 

Nothing stopping them, except they'd be paying massively inflated prices to buy from gangsters who'd (still) be breaking the law, to purchase product of dodgy quality.  Addicts might start off doing drugs for kicks, but it's not fun once addicted and desperate. They usually don't seek help because they're involved in criminal activity.

 

I can't see a particular problem with "releasing" addicts high on drugs, some significant % of people you see are high on drugs and you (and I) don't know. It's not "creating" a problem - that problem is already there.  Most drugs of habit, they're not a risk to others anyway, a junkie is more likely to mug you or burgle your house out of desperation when they're not high and need (money for) drugs, when they're high, they'll leave you alone.  Yes - they may neglect themselves or their kids, but at least if their problem was decriminalised and controlled, there would be a chance to intervene to prevent disaster.  They way things are now, nothing is done until something terrible happens.

 

I had reservations about what to do with drugs like methamphetamine with decriminalisation, as in that case (ab)use can lead to significant brain damage, psychosis and potential violence.  It's very nasty crap indeed, still I think it's use should also be decriminalised along with other drugs and included in programmes.  I don't know how many people use methamphetamine, but based on seizures by customs etc it must be a hell of a lot of people.  Most don't go psycho, but some do.

 

People are conservative because they're ignorant.  They're ignorant because they've been targets of propaganda campaigns all their lives.  The war on drugs has failed.  Change is needed.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1681026 2-Dec-2016 08:56
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Fred99:

 

 

 

People are conservative because they're ignorant.  They're ignorant because they've been targets of propaganda campaigns all their lives.  The war on drugs has failed.  Change is needed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, what an incredibly arrogant and insulting statement.





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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

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The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 




Glurp
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  Reply # 1681057 2-Dec-2016 09:15
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Fred99:

 

People are conservative because they're ignorant.  They're ignorant because they've been targets of propaganda campaigns all their lives.  The war on drugs has failed.  Change is needed.

 

 

This sums it up beautifully. Couldn't agree more.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1681061 2-Dec-2016 09:19
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MikeB4:

 

Fred99:

 

 

 

People are conservative because they're ignorant.  They're ignorant because they've been targets of propaganda campaigns all their lives.  The war on drugs has failed.  Change is needed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, what an incredibly arrogant and insulting statement.

 

 

I'm not bothered too much about hurting the feelings of snowflakes who pretend they know something about the subject.

 

I thought you'd been in management, where expressions like "if you keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you've always got" are used to argue for change.

 

It will sink in eventually, but thanks to ignorant conservatives, it's taking far too long.

 

BTW - I despise (abuse of) drugs.


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  Reply # 1681094 2-Dec-2016 10:36
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Fred99:

 

MikeB4:

 

Fred99:

 

 

 

People are conservative because they're ignorant.  They're ignorant because they've been targets of propaganda campaigns all their lives.  The war on drugs has failed.  Change is needed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, what an incredibly arrogant and insulting statement.

 

 

I'm not bothered too much about hurting the feelings of snowflakes who pretend they know something about the subject.

 

I thought you'd been in management, where expressions like "if you keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you've always got" are used to argue for change.

 

It will sink in eventually, but thanks to ignorant conservatives, it's taking far too long.

 

BTW - I despise (abuse of) drugs.

 

 

 

 

I prefer to debate the issues not the person, insults and denigration lessen an argument not enhance it.





Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 1681101 2-Dec-2016 10:48
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MikeB4:

 

 

 

I prefer to debate the issues not the person, insults and denigration lessen an argument not enhance it.

 

 

 

 

Well go ahead then, I'm still here arguing, despite being branded some kind of sandal-wearing liberal fruitcake hippy many times, which is like water off a duck's back to me.

 

I will stick with my opinion that in this case, conservatism is based on ignorance - as I don't see even the slightest evidence that when presented with facts and example, there's even any acceptance that the "War on Drugs" is a failure.  Even in places where they hang or shoot people for involvement with drugs, the fact that they hang or shoot people is evidence that even the harshest measures don't solve the problem.




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  Reply # 1681706 3-Dec-2016 13:08
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Once again, the ostrich with its head in the sand is coming home to roost (pardon mixed metaphor). Violent crime and burglaries are on the increase, and according to an article in our local paper, at least some of this is being blamed on methamphetamine use. Here are two quotes from the police that caught my attention:

 

‘Because P was an illegal drug that people didn’t discuss freely, it was difficult to get a proper understanding of its use and whether that was increasing.’

 

In other words, it is difficult to take appropriate counter-measures because the scale of the problem is not well understood. Ignorance rules.

 

‘Police were unable to provide accurate statistics on “meth-related crime”, however, because even when there was a clear methamphetamine charge (such as possession) laid at the same time as a burglary or other charge, it was not possible to know whether methamphetamine played a role in actually causing the crime.’

 

More ignorance. As long as it remains illegal, authorities can only guess and speculate as to the best course of action.

 

Here is what astounds me: For many, many years a massive social experiment has been underway throughout the world. The premise of this experiment is that if you make drugs illegal and threaten severe punishments for being involved with them in any way, this will stop people from using them. This has been tried. Over and over. For a very long time in many different places. It has not worked anywhere. Yet many authorities carry on trying to poke a hole in water, though some are having increasing doubts.

 

The argument for legalisation is simple: The other thing has been tried and it hasn’t worked. So doesn’t it make sense to try something else? I do not, for the life of me, understand why so many people have such a hard time getting this. If something doesn’t work, you try something different.

 

Of course you can always be an ostrich instead.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1681860 3-Dec-2016 19:42
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And you still flogging that horse.

Just because they can't say definitively (and they have to have enough evidence to say so, they are the police after all, you say they are ignorant, simply because it doesn't suit your viewpoint.

Wrong is wrong... your view of what is wrong is your own (fair enough) but you're reaching the point of preaching it here (with your co ultra-liberal Fred99) and nobody else is agreeing or changing their mind.

Can't we just let this one rest now? (Or go to your MP and convince them!)



Glurp
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  Reply # 1681868 3-Dec-2016 19:59
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You can always unsubscribe from this thread if it bores you. It is called 'They lost the war on drugs' for a reason and when I see something that seems relevant to the subject, I will cite it for any who might be interested (and there are several other than Fred99). No-one is forcing you to read along. Go do something else that you enjoy.

 

 

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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