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  Reply # 1524477 2-Apr-2016 10:44
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Good suggestion. I think the war on drugs failed because it was based on a false premise.

 

 





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  Reply # 1524487 2-Apr-2016 11:00
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Rikkitic:

Good suggestion. I think the war on drugs failed because it was based on a false premise.


 


And removing the war on drugs by making it legal will stop drug induced crime, assaults, driving into someone or property and will remove the criminal underworld ? Itcwillbincrease all of those.

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1524524 2-Apr-2016 11:45
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tdgeek:
And removing the war on drugs by making it legal will stop drug induced crime, assaults, driving into someone or property and will remove the criminal underworld ? Itcwillbincrease all of those.

 

 

 

On the contrary, all of these people:

 

 

Columbia University, New York City, NY, USA (J Csete PhD, Prof C Hart PhD); University of Malaya, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia (Prof A Kamarulzaman PhD); UN Special Envoy, HIV in Eastern Europe and Central Asia, Geneva, Switzerland (Prof M Kazatchkine PhD); Yale University, New Haven, CT, USA (Prof F Altice MD); Warsaw, Poland (M Balicki MD); Central European University, Budapest, Hungary (Prof J Buxton PhD); Center for Public Health and Human Rights, Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Baltimore, MD, USA (J Cepeda PhD, Prof S Sherman PhD, Prof C Beyrer MD); RTI International, Washington, DC, USA (M Comfort PhD); University of California, San Francisco, San Francisco, CA, USA (Prof E Goosby MD); Ministry of Health, Lisbon, Portugal (J Goulão MD); University of British Columbia, Center of Excellence in HIV/ AIDS, Vancouver, BC, Canada (Prof T Kerr PhD); Centro de Investigación y Docencia Económicas, Mexico City, Mexico (Prof A M Lajous LLD); AIDS-Free World, Toronto, ON, Canada (Prof S Lewis); University of California, San Diego, San Diego, CA, USA (N Martin DPhil); University of the Andes, Bogotá, Colombia (Prof D Mejía PhD, Prof A Camacho PhD); Human Rights Watch, Yangon, Myanmar (D Mathieson MA); University of Uyo, Uyo, Nigeria (Prof I Obot PhD); Youth Rise— Nigeria, Lagos, Nigeria (A Ogunrombi); University of Bristol, Bristol, UK (J Stone MS, P Vickerman PhD); Trivandrum Institute of Palliative Sciences, Trivandrum, India (N Vallath MBBS); and Charles University, Prague, Czech Republic (Prof T Zábranský PhD)

 

 

 

 

disagree with you.

 

 

 

 

Health impact of drug policy based on prohibition The pursuit of drug prohibition has generated a parallel economy run by criminal networks. Both these networks, which resort to violence to protect their markets, and the police and sometimes military or paramilitary forces that pursue them contribute to violence and insecurity in communities affected by drug transit and sales. In Mexico, the striking increase in homicides since the government decided to use military forces against drug traffickers in 2006 has been so great that it reduced life expectancy in the country.

 

 

And:

 

 

Countries such as Portugal and the Czech Republic decriminalised minor drug offences years ago, with significant financial savings, less incarceration, significant public health benefits, and no significant increase in drug use. Decriminalisation of minor offences along with scaling up low-threshold HIV prevention services enabled Portugal to control an explosive, unsafe injection-linked HIV epidemic, and probably prevented one from happening in the Czech Republic.

 

 

And:

 

 

The case of Russia is extreme: OST [Opioid Substitution Therapy] is prohibited by law even though opioid injection is widespread, and NSPs have been allowed only sporadically and are generally not supported by the state.125 In many jurisdictions, NSPs are banned by law or effectively blocked by policy, including zoning restrictions. The official estimate of Russians living with HIV rose to 907000 by the end of 2014, up almost 7% from 2013 figures, and up from 500000 in 2010. More than 57% of new cases were attributed to unsafe drug injection.

 

 

And:

 

 

Some countries have applied the death penalty very publicly to foreign nationals in an attempt to discourage international trafficking—eg, Indonesia’s execution of Australian, Nigerian, and Brazilian nationals for drug offences in July, 2015. But there is no evidence that drug-related executions have a deterrent effect on drug trafficking or other offences. In Iran, where in 2011 more than 70% of state-sponsored executions were for drug offences, the then-head of the Iranian High Council for Human Rights observed that the executions did not seem to make a dent in the level of trafficking in the country.

 

 

 

 

But, on the other hand:

 

 

In 1998, a multisectoral expert committee was convened by the Portuguese Government to address the drug problem. Its proposed solution, eventually written into a 2000 law that came into force in 2001, was to remove criminal sanctions from individual use and possession of all drugs. ... New HIV transmission among people who inject drugs declined from almost 800 cases in 2003 to less than 100 in 2012. ... Critics of the Portuguese policy decision feared that drug use would increase overall. As of the 2011 compilation of figures by the EU’s monitoring body, cannabis use had not increased in the previous year (figure 26), and Portugal’s total drug use is one of the lowest in the EU; the ranking of Portugal with respect to use of amphetamines in the past year is similarly low compared with that in other countries.

 

 

 

 

And:

 

 

Drug use became a major political issue in cities in the 1990s. In 1998, the Czech Republic changed its approach and criminalised penalties for all drug offences involving a quantity of drugs that was not clearly specified. Remarkably, the Government commissioned academic researchers to study the impact of the new law. Led by Tomáš Zábranský (one of the Commission authors), the study team found that the new criminal penalties did not reduce problematic drug use or the availability of drugs, as their supporters had claimed they would do, and that the policing and incarceration needed to enforce the law was very costly.397 After long debate, the 1998 law was replaced in 2010 by a law that decriminalised use and possession below clearly defined cutoff amounts for all drugs.

 

 

 

 

And:

 

 

Beginning in 2011, Malaysia began implementing a plan to convert 18 of its 28 compulsory treatment centres into so-called cure and care clinics offering voluntary inpatient and outpatient treatment for drug dependence, including OST.421 These clinics use existing health infrastructure, and the drug law has not changed. As of early 2015, 36 000 people who use drugs had used these new services. Early results indicate that among people who used both metamfetamine and opioids, use declined after treatment.

 

 

 

 

 

Decriminalise minor drug offences—use, possession, and petty sale: The long experiences in Portugal, the Czech Republic, and other countries with decriminalisation of minor drug offences demonstrate the benefits of treating minor infractions without recourse to criminal sanctions. These benefits include offerings of health and social support to people who might need them, reduction of The Lancet Commissions www.thelancet.com Published online March 24, 2016 http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0140-6736(16)00619-X 43 incarceration of men, women, and young people and all the associated harms, and elimination of the wastefulness of the police’s pursuit of minor offenders.

 

 

 

 

The evidence says that you're wrong. If you want to read the whole thing and still disagree with it, I've already linked to it twice.

 

 

 

 





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  Reply # 1524532 2-Apr-2016 11:57
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SaltyNZ:

 

tdgeek:
And removing the war on drugs by making it legal will stop drug induced crime, assaults, driving into someone or property and will remove the criminal underworld ? Itcwillbincrease all of those.

 

 

 

On the contrary, all of these people:

 

 

Columbia University, New York City, NY, USA (J Csete PhD, Prof C Hart PhD); University of Malaya, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia (Prof A Kamarulzaman PhD); UN Special Envoy, HIV in Eastern Europe and Central Asia, Geneva, Switzerland (Prof M Kazatchkine PhD); Yale University, New Haven, CT, USA (Prof F Altice MD); Warsaw, Poland (M Balicki MD); Central European University, Budapest, Hungary (Prof J Buxton PhD); Center for Public Health and Human Rights, Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Baltimore, MD, USA (J Cepeda PhD, Prof S Sherman PhD, Prof C Beyrer MD); RTI International, Washington, DC, USA (M Comfort PhD); University of California, San Francisco, San Francisco, CA, USA (Prof E Goosby MD); Ministry of Health, Lisbon, Portugal (J Goulão MD); University of British Columbia, Center of Excellence in HIV/ AIDS, Vancouver, BC, Canada (Prof T Kerr PhD); Centro de Investigación y Docencia Económicas, Mexico City, Mexico (Prof A M Lajous LLD); AIDS-Free World, Toronto, ON, Canada (Prof S Lewis); University of California, San Diego, San Diego, CA, USA (N Martin DPhil); University of the Andes, Bogotá, Colombia (Prof D Mejía PhD, Prof A Camacho PhD); Human Rights Watch, Yangon, Myanmar (D Mathieson MA); University of Uyo, Uyo, Nigeria (Prof I Obot PhD); Youth Rise— Nigeria, Lagos, Nigeria (A Ogunrombi); University of Bristol, Bristol, UK (J Stone MS, P Vickerman PhD); Trivandrum Institute of Palliative Sciences, Trivandrum, India (N Vallath MBBS); and Charles University, Prague, Czech Republic (Prof T Zábranský PhD)

 

 

 

 

disagree with you.

 

 

 

 

Health impact of drug policy based on prohibition The pursuit of drug prohibition has generated a parallel economy run by criminal networks. Both these networks, which resort to violence to protect their markets, and the police and sometimes military or paramilitary forces that pursue them contribute to violence and insecurity in communities affected by drug transit and sales. In Mexico, the striking increase in homicides since the government decided to use military forces against drug traffickers in 2006 has been so great that it reduced life expectancy in the country.

 

 

And:

 

 

Countries such as Portugal and the Czech Republic decriminalised minor drug offences years ago, with significant financial savings, less incarceration, significant public health benefits, and no significant increase in drug use. Decriminalisation of minor offences along with scaling up low-threshold HIV prevention services enabled Portugal to control an explosive, unsafe injection-linked HIV epidemic, and probably prevented one from happening in the Czech Republic.

 

 

And:

 

 

The case of Russia is extreme: OST [Opioid Substitution Therapy] is prohibited by law even though opioid injection is widespread, and NSPs have been allowed only sporadically and are generally not supported by the state.125 In many jurisdictions, NSPs are banned by law or effectively blocked by policy, including zoning restrictions. The official estimate of Russians living with HIV rose to 907000 by the end of 2014, up almost 7% from 2013 figures, and up from 500000 in 2010. More than 57% of new cases were attributed to unsafe drug injection.

 

 

And:

 

 

Some countries have applied the death penalty very publicly to foreign nationals in an attempt to discourage international trafficking—eg, Indonesia’s execution of Australian, Nigerian, and Brazilian nationals for drug offences in July, 2015. But there is no evidence that drug-related executions have a deterrent effect on drug trafficking or other offences. In Iran, where in 2011 more than 70% of state-sponsored executions were for drug offences, the then-head of the Iranian High Council for Human Rights observed that the executions did not seem to make a dent in the level of trafficking in the country.

 

 

 

 

But, on the other hand:

 

 

In 1998, a multisectoral expert committee was convened by the Portuguese Government to address the drug problem. Its proposed solution, eventually written into a 2000 law that came into force in 2001, was to remove criminal sanctions from individual use and possession of all drugs. ... New HIV transmission among people who inject drugs declined from almost 800 cases in 2003 to less than 100 in 2012. ... Critics of the Portuguese policy decision feared that drug use would increase overall. As of the 2011 compilation of figures by the EU’s monitoring body, cannabis use had not increased in the previous year (figure 26), and Portugal’s total drug use is one of the lowest in the EU; the ranking of Portugal with respect to use of amphetamines in the past year is similarly low compared with that in other countries.

 

 

 

 

And:

 

 

Drug use became a major political issue in cities in the 1990s. In 1998, the Czech Republic changed its approach and criminalised penalties for all drug offences involving a quantity of drugs that was not clearly specified. Remarkably, the Government commissioned academic researchers to study the impact of the new law. Led by Tomáš Zábranský (one of the Commission authors), the study team found that the new criminal penalties did not reduce problematic drug use or the availability of drugs, as their supporters had claimed they would do, and that the policing and incarceration needed to enforce the law was very costly.397 After long debate, the 1998 law was replaced in 2010 by a law that decriminalised use and possession below clearly defined cutoff amounts for all drugs.

 

 

 

 

And:

 

 

Beginning in 2011, Malaysia began implementing a plan to convert 18 of its 28 compulsory treatment centres into so-called cure and care clinics offering voluntary inpatient and outpatient treatment for drug dependence, including OST.421 These clinics use existing health infrastructure, and the drug law has not changed. As of early 2015, 36 000 people who use drugs had used these new services. Early results indicate that among people who used both metamfetamine and opioids, use declined after treatment.

 

 

 

 

 

Decriminalise minor drug offences—use, possession, and petty sale: The long experiences in Portugal, the Czech Republic, and other countries with decriminalisation of minor drug offences demonstrate the benefits of treating minor infractions without recourse to criminal sanctions. These benefits include offerings of health and social support to people who might need them, reduction of The Lancet Commissions www.thelancet.com Published online March 24, 2016 http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/S0140-6736(16)00619-X 43 incarceration of men, women, and young people and all the associated harms, and elimination of the wastefulness of the police’s pursuit of minor offenders.

 

 

 

 

The evidence says that you're wrong. If you want to read the whole thing and still disagree with it, I've already linked to it twice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Appreciate the effort given here Salty. 

 

Here is what I think, and Im no expert.

 

And removing the war on drugs by making it legal will

 

 

 

"stop drug induced crime, assaults, driving into someone or property"

 

I don't really see how legalising drugs will cause less people to use less drugs. If its freely available, more will use it, surely? And as its freely available, and no need to do a joint

 

in the secret confines of ones manshed, the effects will spread into the wider community. Such as alcohol. 

 

 

 

"remove the criminal underworld"

 

Legal drugs wont be cheap. Licences to manufacture, to distribute, labels, compliance, testing will all add to the cost. The underworld will be there in force as a cheaper option

 

It may also spur the use of illegal drugs as thats a cool factor. 

 

 

 

As I see it, it harms the health, its not a free choice issue as innocent citizens get exposed to the ramifications of drug use, there isn't a lot really going for it. If you can provide  means where drug users are separated from society and where there is no effect o others, others health and welfare etc, then go for its, like a drug taking centre. Sounds a stupid idea, but while some want a free choice, others also want a free choice not to be exposed to it as well. We learn the lesson with alcohol, and are still paying for it and still doing it. BTW I like a few beers etc like many, but I see the bad bad other side. Its one thing with drunks on the streets chucking everywhere, starting fights, damaging property, walking over vomit, RTD cans, bottles, do we want to add more?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 




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  Reply # 1524536 2-Apr-2016 12:01
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tdgeek:
Rikkitic:

 

Good suggestion. I think the war on drugs failed because it was based on a false premise.

 

 


And removing the war on drugs by making it legal will stop drug induced crime, assaults, driving into someone or property and will remove the criminal underworld ? Itcwillbincrease all of those.

 

Is that an opinion or do you have some facts to back it up?

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1524539 2-Apr-2016 12:05
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Rikkitic:

 

tdgeek:
Rikkitic:

 

Good suggestion. I think the war on drugs failed because it was based on a false premise.

 

 


And removing the war on drugs by making it legal will stop drug induced crime, assaults, driving into someone or property and will remove the criminal underworld ? Itcwillbincrease all of those.

 

Is that an opinion or do you have some facts to back it up?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Opinion. Drugs, including alcohol provide all of these features, thats a fact. How will making it available on every street corner, reduce the number of users and reduce what they do when intoxicated? As I posted earlier, users going to Netherlands is increasing negative issues, there, thats a fact. 




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  Reply # 1524541 2-Apr-2016 12:06
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@SaltyNZ: Many plus 1's and much appreciation for that very detailed post. At last, real information in place of emotion-based opinion. 

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1524542 2-Apr-2016 12:06
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Rikkitic:

 

tdgeek:
Rikkitic:

 

Good suggestion. I think the war on drugs failed because it was based on a false premise.

 

 


And removing the war on drugs by making it legal will stop drug induced crime, assaults, driving into someone or property and will remove the criminal underworld ? Itcwillbincrease all of those.

 

Is that an opinion or do you have some facts to back it up?

 

 

 

 

And I had already posted reasons why this is my opinion, but you didn't respond to those, with your opinion


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  Reply # 1524547 2-Apr-2016 12:12
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Rikkitic:

 

@SaltyNZ: Many plus 1's and much appreciation for that very detailed post. At last, real information in place of emotion-based opinion. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There you go again. I agree with Saltys effort to provide real detail. 

 

So, thats real information, and everything else is emotive opinion? So, if someone posts an equally detailed article that had many negative 1's that will also be emotive opinion and not real information? For you it will be, as its always the same negativeness.  We need more info (like Saltys) and less aggression, bad mouthing anyone and everyone, countries included, including dear old NZ, and have a discussion. Id prefer that you discussed, facts where available, opinions, and discuss. Thats severely lacking by some. Off course, I could choose , when I see a post that disagrees with me, to call it stupid rubbish, inept, and so on, but I don't do that, and most here don't either, but those that do, just turn a discussion into a fiasco where it becomes ONLY emotive


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  Reply # 1524548 2-Apr-2016 12:14
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Rikkitic:

 

@SaltyNZ: Many plus 1's and much appreciation for that very detailed post. At last, real information in place of emotion-based opinion. 

 

 

 

 

If you were so confident in the "real information" then you wouldn't need to attempt to denigrate opposing views as "emotion-based". You might not agree with the opinions or reasons given but that does not make them "emotion-based".

 

Edit: Crossed over with tdgeek who says the same more strongly. sealed


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  Reply # 1524559 2-Apr-2016 12:27
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Hammerer:

 

Rikkitic:

 

@SaltyNZ: Many plus 1's and much appreciation for that very detailed post. At last, real information in place of emotion-based opinion. 

 

 

 

 

If you were so confident in the "real information" then you wouldn't need to attempt to denigrate opposing views as "emotion-based". You might not agree with the opinions or reasons given but that does not make them "emotion-based".

 

Edit: Crossed over with tdgeek who says the same more strongly. sealed

 

 

 

 

Not too strongly I hope, I had the FUG in mind as I typed. 




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  Reply # 1524560 2-Apr-2016 12:33
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tdgeek:

 

Rikkitic:

 

tdgeek:
Rikkitic:

 

Good suggestion. I think the war on drugs failed because it was based on a false premise.

 

 


And removing the war on drugs by making it legal will stop drug induced crime, assaults, driving into someone or property and will remove the criminal underworld ? Itcwillbincrease all of those.

 

Is that an opinion or do you have some facts to back it up?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Opinion. Drugs, including alcohol provide all of these features, thats a fact. How will making it available on every street corner, reduce the number of users and reduce what they do when intoxicated? As I posted earlier, users going to Netherlands is increasing negative issues, there, thats a fact. 

 

 

Look at the way things are right now. Do you think this is how they should be? It is the result of many years of the same repressive policies. There is already plenty of drug-induced mayhem and crime infecting our society. Maybe it is time to try something else. Something that has been shown to work elsewhere. Open up your mind.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 




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  Reply # 1524562 2-Apr-2016 12:38
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tdgeek:

 

 

 

And I had already posted reasons why this is my opinion, but you didn't respond to those, with your opinion

 

 

I'm honestly not sure what you are trying to say here. I am happy to respond to any points you wish me to but I don't know what you are specifically referring to.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 




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  Reply # 1524566 2-Apr-2016 12:45
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Hammerer:

 

Rikkitic:

 

@SaltyNZ: Many plus 1's and much appreciation for that very detailed post. At last, real information in place of emotion-based opinion. 

 

 

 

 

If you were so confident in the "real information" then you wouldn't need to attempt to denigrate opposing views as "emotion-based". You might not agree with the opinions or reasons given but that does not make them "emotion-based".

 

Edit: Crossed over with tdgeek who says the same more strongly. sealed

 

 

Early in this thread someone started making emotional suppositions akin to the 'Reefer Madness' propaganda films. Things like children being crushed against fences by dope-crazed drivers. This is an irrational non-argument with no factual basis calculated to evoke an emotional response, rather like what Donald Trump is doing at the moment. I called it emotion-based because it is. 

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1524568 2-Apr-2016 12:49
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networkn:

 

Fred99:

 

networkn:

 

Interestingly, I have never taken ANY of those drugs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'd be very surprised if you haven't taken Panadeine/Codeine, perhaps been administered benzodiazepine, cocaine (HCL) as anaesthetic for nasal/eye interventions, ketamine in an operating theatre, but I guess there's a chance you've always been perfect in every way.

 

 

I am, in every way, just ask my wife!

 

 

 

 

If she's like most, she will say SHE is and YOU aren't..! cool






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