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networkn
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  #1576306 18-Jun-2016 19:00
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scuwp:

 

networkn:

 

nakedmolerat: @networkn I guess you're the perfect human and never forget nor ever make mistake. The policeman is a mere mortal like the rest of us here.

 

 

 

I wouldn't leave my LOADED GUN where someone could access it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That may be the case where carrying a gun is an extraordinarily rare and special occurrence. For these guys the gun is like carrying your car keys, they do it consistently and it becomes second nature.  Ever left your car keys anywhere by mistake?  Your phone?  Not making excuses, the owner needs their ass kicked good and proper, but I get tired of the american theatrics and armchair experts.  And a gun isn't much good unless it's loaded, what else would you expect it to be for an operational weapon?  Typically that means a full magazine and no bullet in the chamber. Pull the trigger and nothing would happen, so accidental discharge just from someone grabbing the gun is highly unlikely.       

 

 

 

 

I'd argue that for a police officer they should view their weapon as "special" and worth of extra consideration and care. Don't you think they should? If the armed police are considering this the same as a set of keys, as far as I am concerned, they shouldn't have guns. I am FOR police carrying guns, and I am FOR the police being better armed than the criminals they protect against (on the whole), but with great power, comes great responsibility. 

 

The president is responsible for 1 set of the nuclear football codes, would you be so unconcerned if he had an "off day" and left them in a bathroom at the Kremlin?

 

I don't care that it's loaded (as you say, it's not suitable as an operational device if it's not), I am saying BECAUSE it's loaded, EXTRA care should be taken.

 

Just because something bad DIDN'T happen, doesn't mean there should be no serious consequences. 

 

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/99-were-good-enough-paul-kowdrysh

 

 


Rikkitic
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  #1576355 18-Jun-2016 20:59
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networkn:

 

nakedmolerat: @networkn I guess you're the perfect human and never forget nor ever make mistake. The policeman is a mere mortal like the rest of us here.

 

 

 

What a completely ridiculous thing to say! It's pretty hard to take you seriously after that nonsense. 

 

Did I once say I was perfect? Nope. However, I wouldn't leave my LOADED GUN where someone could access it. If I did, I would expect SEVERE consequences, would make no excuses and accept my punishment. 

 

I am not expecting them to adhere to a standard I wouldn't be prepared to accept myself. Pretty worrying the number of people who have such low standards of conduct. 

 

Even accidents can kill people. A lot of people who cause accidents that kill people, end up in prison, because actions (even accidents) have consequences. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

People do make mistakes. Sometimes these can have terrible consequences. I often watch the air disaster series on National Geographic. No-one carries more responsibility than a pilot, but the mistakes of pilots can cause crashes and sometimes hundreds of people die. Of course actions have consequences, and monumental carelessness should not go unpunished, but it is not ridiculous to point out that it is human nature to get things wrong sometimes, however tragic the results of that can be.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


 
 
 
 


Geektastic
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  #1576359 18-Jun-2016 21:17
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MikeB4: It must be awesome to be infallible


However since the police like to claim that we are not fit to carry firearms and that they are, they do need to be held to a higher standard than a normal civilian pistol owner I'd say.





MikeB4
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  #1576366 18-Jun-2016 21:51
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Geektastic:
MikeB4: It must be awesome to be infallible


However since the police like to claim that we are not fit to carry firearms and that they are, they do need to be held to a higher standard than a normal civilian pistol owner I'd say.

 

 

 

I don't recall the NZ Police making this claim


gzt

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  #1576370 18-Jun-2016 21:58
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Any guesses on a civilian doing the same thing?

Assuming it was a public place, genuine mistake, no other offences,

I'm thinking diversion and a few months license suspension.

In the police maybe that would equate to traffic duties for three months ; ).

I assume they have some kind of internal disciplinary procedure for this so maybe not unlikely.

Geektastic
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  #1576377 18-Jun-2016 22:09
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gzt: Any guesses on a civilian doing the same thing?

Assuming it was a public place, genuine mistake, no other offences,

I'm thinking diversion and a few months license suspension.

In the police maybe that would equate to traffic duties for three months ; ).

I assume they have some kind of internal disciplinary procedure for this so maybe not unlikely.

 

 

 

Not a hope. A civilian doing this would lose their guns and their licence. Forever.






gzt

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  #1576378 18-Jun-2016 22:11
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Is this a public bathroom or a parliamentary staff bathroom?

 
 
 
 


radomatic
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  #1576597 19-Jun-2016 16:11
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Make no mistake - this is a serious incident. It is an excellent outcome that there were no injuries or worse. Yes it's true, mistakes happen. But surely those who we entrust with weapons (eg the Police) should be held to a higher standard around these sorts of things?

 

No one is calling for any undue consequences for the officer involved (and nor should they be) - but certainly this will need to be addressed and there will need to be consequences of some kind, and of course an emphasis on training to prevent any similar incident from occurring. 

 

No doubt the thin blue line will serve to protect its own once again and nothing will happen... I wonder what the result would be had this been a member of the public? Would it just be an innocent mistake in that case? Doubtful.


MikeB4
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  #1576608 19-Jun-2016 16:34
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radomatic:

 

Make no mistake - this is a serious incident. It is an excellent outcome that there were no injuries or worse. Yes it's true, mistakes happen. But surely those who we entrust with weapons (eg the Police) should be held to a higher standard around these sorts of things?

 

No one is calling for any undue consequences for the officer involved (and nor should they be) - but certainly this will need to be addressed and there will need to be consequences of some kind, and of course an emphasis on training to prevent any similar incident from occurring. 

 

No doubt the thin blue line will serve to protect its own once again and nothing will happen... I wonder what the result would be had this been a member of the public? Would it just be an innocent mistake in that case? Doubtful.

 

 

 

 

really? in the times i worked in the Beehive there were not throngs of public making their way around the corridors and availing themselves of the bathrooms. Access is restricted and controlled.


mattwnz
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  #1576616 19-Jun-2016 16:54
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radomatic:

 

Make no mistake - this is a serious incident. It is an excellent outcome that there were no injuries or worse. Yes it's true, mistakes happen. But surely those who we entrust with weapons (eg the Police) should be held to a higher standard around these sorts of things?

 

No one is calling for any undue consequences for the officer involved (and nor should they be) - but certainly this will need to be addressed and there will need to be consequences of some kind, and of course an emphasis on training to prevent any similar incident from occurring. 

 

No doubt the thin blue line will serve to protect its own once again and nothing will happen... I wonder what the result would be had this been a member of the public? Would it just be an innocent mistake in that case? Doubtful.

 

 

 

 

yes it is serious, but the chances of injuries or worse were  very low from this. How would it be any different to a knife being left, which potentially could have been just as dangerous. To say a gun left in a staff bathroom instantly means that anyone who finds it, is going to instantly go out shooting peopl with it, is complete madness. That goes againest the whole thing of it being people who shoot people, not guns. Otherwise if guns are so dangerous by themselves, why do we allow them to be sold at all in NZ. Madness though that in NZ we ban laser pointers being purchased, and have these rules over drones, which haven't killed anyone, yet we allow relatively easy access to air powered rifles, which can kill.

 

 I mean any adult that found the gun would report finding it, as would most children. If a child did happen to find it, they probably wouldn't be able to use it anyway, especially as the safety would be on. It also was probably in a staff toilet, which isn't open to the public, and public access to parliament is very restricted anyway.

 

 

 

 


mattwnz
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  #1576635 19-Jun-2016 17:37
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MikeB4:

 

radomatic:

 

Make no mistake - this is a serious incident. It is an excellent outcome that there were no injuries or worse. Yes it's true, mistakes happen. But surely those who we entrust with weapons (eg the Police) should be held to a higher standard around these sorts of things?

 

No one is calling for any undue consequences for the officer involved (and nor should they be) - but certainly this will need to be addressed and there will need to be consequences of some kind, and of course an emphasis on training to prevent any similar incident from occurring. 

 

No doubt the thin blue line will serve to protect its own once again and nothing will happen... I wonder what the result would be had this been a member of the public? Would it just be an innocent mistake in that case? Doubtful.

 

 

 

 

really? in the times i worked in the Beehive there were not throngs of public making their way around the corridors and availing themselves of the bathrooms. Access is restricted and controlled.

 

 

 

 

Absolutely. Infact if there was anywhere that this was to happen, that would probably be one of the best places for it to happen, as it is a very restricted place.So the odds of it being accessed by a dangerous person would be almost zero. 


DaveB
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  #1576684 19-Jun-2016 18:36
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radomatic:

 

No one is calling for any undue consequences for the officer involved (and nor should they be)

 

 

 

 

Really??

 

 

 

radomatic:

 

but certainly this will need to be addressed and there will need to be consequences of some kind, and of course an emphasis on training to prevent any similar incident from occurring.

 

 

 

 

Oh, here they come!


networkn
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  #1576696 19-Jun-2016 19:10
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mattwnz:

 

 

 

 

 

Absolutely. Infact if there was anywhere that this was to happen, that would probably be one of the best places for it to happen, as it is a very restricted place.So the odds of it being accessed by a dangerous person would be almost zero. 

 

 

If it could happen at the toilets in Parliment it could have happened anywhere. The officer didn't make a conscious decision based on their location. It shows a lack of due care.

 

It concerns me when I see people dismissing the seriousness of a matter because nothing terrible happened. 

 

Is there a downside to it being brought to the attention of all armed officers to take due care of their weapons? We get refresher courses on all sorts of things at work, even if there hasn't been an incident specifically, because vigilance and prevention sure beats the alternatives.


mrdrifter
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  #1576702 19-Jun-2016 19:15
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mattwnz:

 

 

 

 

 

I mean any adult that found the gun would report finding it, as would most children. If a child did happen to find it, they probably wouldn't be able to use it anyway, especially as the safety would be on.

 

 

 

 

It's a Glock, they don't have a safety. The police holsters I believe are designed in two pieces so the main unit that holds the firearm can be removed from the belt without having to un-holster the firearm itself. The firearm was likely to have still been locked in the holster - retention holsters generally require multiple movements to extricate the firearm i.e press lock in, twist grip and pull out.

 

I'm sure the officer involved will have had a decent dressing down, but I expect nothing much more will come of this.


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  #1576887 20-Jun-2016 09:20
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networkn:

 

If it could happen at the toilets in Parliment it could have happened anywhere. The officer didn't make a conscious decision based on their location. It shows a lack of due care.

 

It concerns me when I see people dismissing the seriousness of a matter because nothing terrible happened. 

 

Is there a downside to it being brought to the attention of all armed officers to take due care of their weapons? We get refresher courses on all sorts of things at work, even if there hasn't been an incident specifically, because vigilance and prevention sure beats the alternatives.

 

 

The Police themselves prosecute people all the time for lack of due care... I don't see why they should apply a lesser standard to their own officers.

 

Plus of course the delicious irony of the Police themselves making a firearm available inside the cordon established to protect our MPs. One does wonder how often it happens, but the gun is recovered without it hitting the media. Perhaps it's worthwhile for terrorists to periodically scour the Parliamentary toilets for weapons?

 

 


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