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  Reply # 1670780 14-Nov-2016 14:24
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One of the many things that has surprised me about this election is the extent to which I have seen intelligent, thoughtful and fair minded people I know   ingest and regurgitate without critique anything and everything negative said about Trump. They have done this while accusing those who voted for him of  thoughtlessness.

 

Not that there isn't plenty to dislike about Trump, but plenty of democrats within the US and left leaning people outside it, have been drinking the Kool-aid too.

 

 





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  Reply # 1670781 14-Nov-2016 14:24
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Rikkitic:

 

Geektastic:

 

I'd say the chances are pretty slim. 

 

Just because someone firms up and gets a bit right wing it does not mean that they are going to start a new Final Solution...

 

There is a modern tendency to point at anyone who is not a liberal lefty and suggest that they will soon be growing that moustache etc etc, which seems a long bow to draw to me.

 

 

I am still reflecting on all this. I don't know how dangerous or 'evil' Trump himself is. I see him as a bombastic, self-obsessed shallow individual who will do or say anything to get what he wants. I see his election as an anomoly. What really bothers me is the dark passions being unleased in all those who usually hide under rocks and now think it is socially acceptable to publically spew their vile venom. There could also be an ongoing pattern of escalating violence against those they think they now have approval to target. Regardless of Trump's character or motives, he could be unleashing forces he can't control and that concerns me a great deal.

 

 

 

 

There is inherent danger in simply classifying people whose views do not concur with the prevailing groupthink, or whose views are considered distasteful or whatever, as some sort of problem to be erased. It is that which is as much the reason that we have Brexit, Trump and soon Le Pen etc as anything else.

 

It's a vast issue which is far to great to condense here into a meaningful debate really but consider thinking outside the box a bit. For example (and these are examples, I am not condoning, endorsing or in any other way suggesting approval of the following, merely hypothesising)

 

Let us assume that there are wide sectors of societies across the world who would like to live in a particular way.

 

Is it likely to produce more general happiness if we force them not to do that because we think they should not do it or if we create places where they can lead their lives the way they want to? Which will lead to a more peaceful society? For example, Indian reservations in the US or Israel are places where this kind of approach has already been taken.

 

I mention this simply because it seems to me that the problems we see are because we have forced people to do things that they do not wish to do, rather than tried to find solutions that enable that where possible. Trumps, Brexits and Le Pens etc are seismic shifts caused by keeping the lid on a pressure cooker too long whilst at the same time whistling to ourselves and pretending that nothing will happen as a result of doing that. 

 

The solutions may be much, much larger than "wait a few years and elect someone else for business as usual to resume". What was right in the immediate post-war period may not now be right and may require a more root and branch alteration as we head into the future.






 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1670788 14-Nov-2016 14:38
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MikeAqua:

 

One of the many things that has surprised me about this election is the extent to which I have seen intelligent, thoughtful and fair minded people I know   ingest and regurgitate without critique anything and everything negative said about Trump. They have done this while accusing those who voted for him of  thoughtlessness.

 

Not that there isn't plenty to dislike about Trump, but plenty of democrats within the US and left leaning people outside it, have been drinking the Kool-aid too.

 

 

 

 

I have not drunk any kool-aid. My visceral dislike of Trump is based entirely on what I have seen him say and do. He thinks it is fine to grope the genitals of women, make fun of disabled people, and refuse to abide by the rules of democracy, o cite only a very few of his well-documented utterances. He is rotten human being and I despise him entirely for that reason. Anyone who voted for him, rather than against what they imagined the 'establishment' to be, fully deserves the label of thoughtless, and probably brainless as well. This will prove to be an historic mistake of possibly apocolyptic proportions.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1670793 14-Nov-2016 14:51
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Geektastic:

 

Is it likely to produce more general happiness if we force them not to do that because we think they should not do it or if we create places where they can lead their lives the way they want to? Which will lead to a more peaceful society? For example, Indian reservations in the US or Israel are places where this kind of approach has already been taken.

 

 

I believe in right and wrong. I believe these are absolutes, not shades of. The confinement of American Indians to reservations was an obscenity, one of the big lies upon which America is built. The position of the Palestinians is similar and is probably directly and indirectly responsible for the tens of thousands of murders that have taken place in the Middle East. Israel is not a happy place, for almost anyone living there. Unemployment, poverty and drunkenness are the main defining characteristics of reservation life. Whose happiness is being looked after here? 

 

A slave-owner allowed to keep his plantations and human propterty may well be happier, but that doesn't make it right. A society that is fair to all may make those who don't believe in equal opportunity for everyone unhappy, but for me that is no reason at all to go in that direction.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1670794 14-Nov-2016 14:53
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Rikkitic:

 

 What really bothers me is the dark passions being unleased in all those who usually hide under rocks and now think it is socially acceptable to publically spew their vile venom. There could also be an ongoing pattern of escalating violence against those they think they now have approval to target.

 

 

 

Just to clarify - are you referring to the lefties who are protesting in the streets of NZ and burning USA flags here?  Or some other group?  Just that the former don't tend to hide under rocks


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  Reply # 1670817 14-Nov-2016 15:00
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shk292:

 

Rikkitic:

 

 What really bothers me is the dark passions being unleased in all those who usually hide under rocks and now think it is socially acceptable to publically spew their vile venom. There could also be an ongoing pattern of escalating violence against those they think they now have approval to target.

 

 

 

Just to clarify - are you referring to the lefties who are protesting in the streets of NZ and burning USA flags here?  Or some other group?  Just that the former don't tend to hide under rocks

 

 

May I ask that we cool down a bit?

 

Burning US flags actually insults Americans who didn't vote Trump.  It's not a good thing to do nor message to send.  Hitler had his own special flag that everyone should have burned.

 

People should however be very aware that Hitler had a lot of popular support outside Germany, in the US, in Britain - countries who in the end finally defeated him at huge cost.


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  Reply # 1670818 14-Nov-2016 15:03
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shk292:

 

 

 

Just to clarify - are you referring to the lefties who are protesting in the streets of NZ and burning USA flags here?  Or some other group?  Just that the former don't tend to hide under rocks

 

 

How about the kids in that American classroom screaming build the wall at their latino classmates? Or the documented assaults on people with brown skins? Those kids have parents that I would certainly classify as rock-dwellers. The cretins who somehow think that Trump's election legitimises overt racism also used to stay out of sight. And how do you know that the flag-burners here are 'lefties'? What do you imagine a 'leftie' is?

 

 





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  Reply # 1670819 14-Nov-2016 15:09
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That earthquake we just had is very obviously a sign that the gods aren't happy that Trump was elected.*

 

*Well, that's what I'd expect some conspiracy nutters to proclaim if it had struck in the USA.


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  Reply # 1670821 14-Nov-2016 15:11
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Only if it was an asteroid.

 

 





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  Reply # 1670822 14-Nov-2016 15:14
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I don't even see why this has become so heated.

 

320million people played a game of survivor.

 

the rules are clear, and have been clear from the start. no immunity challenges, anything goes, as long as within the rule book.

 

20 contestants were selected.

 

after a while it came down to the final 2.

 

the lady and the man made their speeches. the man wins, by a little bit. the lady and her supporters cry, saying it's unfair.

 

the television audience are even more animated!

 

you cannot blame the man for winning. you cannot blame the people for choosing him.

 

blame the system that allowed this to happen.





Swype on iOS is detrimental to accurate typing. Apologies in advance.


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  Reply # 1670823 14-Nov-2016 15:16
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Rikkitic:

 

I have not drunk any kool-aid. My visceral dislike of Trump is based entirely on what I have seen him say and do. He thinks it is fine to grope the genitals of women, ..., o cite only a very few of his well-documented utterances.

 

 

Actually, his well-documented utterance wasn't that he thought it was fine to grope the genitals of women. What he actually said was "And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything ... Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything." This doesn't say anything about whether he thinks it's fine... just that some women are so star-struck that they will allow anything.

 

 


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  Reply # 1670827 14-Nov-2016 15:20
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They both have dirt. The people (who voted) preferred her dirt, but due to the first past the post electoral college, Trump wins. That's how the cookie crumbled. Not much in it overall, but a lot in it due to the first past the post.





Swype on iOS is detrimental to accurate typing. Apologies in advance.


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  Reply # 1670828 14-Nov-2016 15:22
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Rikkitic:

 

Geektastic:

 

Is it likely to produce more general happiness if we force them not to do that because we think they should not do it or if we create places where they can lead their lives the way they want to? Which will lead to a more peaceful society? For example, Indian reservations in the US or Israel are places where this kind of approach has already been taken.

 

 

I believe in right and wrong. I believe these are absolutes, not shades of. The confinement of American Indians to reservations was an obscenity, one of the big lies upon which America is built. The position of the Palestinians is similar and is probably directly and indirectly responsible for the tens of thousands of murders that have taken place in the Middle East. Israel is not a happy place, for almost anyone living there. Unemployment, poverty and drunkenness are the main defining characteristics of reservation life. Whose happiness is being looked after here? 

 

A slave-owner allowed to keep his plantations and human propterty may well be happier, but that doesn't make it right. A society that is fair to all may make those who don't believe in equal opportunity for everyone unhappy, but for me that is no reason at all to go in that direction.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Out of interest, who defines 'right' and 'wrong'?

 

Seems to me that some other folks may have a differing view regarding the definition than you do. Who gets to be referee? It gets like religion - who is correct and what will happen to the ones who made the wrong bet?

 

I did not cite Israel as an example of happiness, but of a new state created for a specific purpose.






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  Reply # 1670832 14-Nov-2016 15:30
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frankv:

 

Rikkitic:

 

I have not drunk any kool-aid. My visceral dislike of Trump is based entirely on what I have seen him say and do. He thinks it is fine to grope the genitals of women, ..., o cite only a very few of his well-documented utterances.

 

 

Actually, his well-documented utterance wasn't that he thought it was fine to grope the genitals of women. What he actually said was "And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything ... Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything." This doesn't say anything about whether he thinks it's fine... just that some women are so star-struck that they will allow anything.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh yeah that's right.  Bad enough for Billy Bush to be suspended and then resigning for standing alongside as he was saying it, but not so bad that the President Elect of the USA brushes it off as "locker room talk" - the kind of thing we all say, apparently. 


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  Reply # 1670835 14-Nov-2016 15:39
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Geektastic:

 

 

 

Out of interest, who defines 'right' and 'wrong'?

 

 

 

 

I don't think it is a matter of 'who'. I  think some things are so wrong it is self-evident to everyone who is not a psychotic serial killer. It is wrong to hurt people, and don't give me rubbish about hurting some to help others, or how I define 'hurt'. Taking pleasure in someone else's pain is wrong. Indiscriminate killing of families to keep yourself in a palace is wrong. Many evils and injustices are just wrong. If you don't have enough moral sense to see that, then you are also wrong.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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