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  Reply # 1683839 7-Dec-2016 13:01
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See what NZ herald are reporting? 

 

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11762219

 

 






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  Reply # 1683913 7-Dec-2016 13:43
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This reminds me, we really need to stop voting for politicians, it only encourages them.





Mike
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  Reply # 1683924 7-Dec-2016 13:57
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rb99:

 

 

 

Always thought one of the advantages of FPTP was that constituencies somehow directly got an MP of the party that the majority voted for, non of this list stuff.

 

May well be wrong, will happily admit I'm very uneducated in such matters.

 

 

Under FPTP in NZ, after Social Credit and then Values appeared, you didn't get an MP the majority voted for. You got an MP the largest minority voted for.  BIG difference. 

 

That's how Muldoon was able to win a majority in both 1978 and 1981 with about 40% of the vote...or less. The votes that went to Social Credit and Values generally elected no one (except Bruce Beetham in Rangitikei for Social Credit, in a bye-election, and then he held the seat for a couple of terms). 

One of the reasons we got MMP was an election where Social Credit got 21% of the vote, but only 2 MPs out of 99. 

 

 





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  Reply # 1683971 7-Dec-2016 15:00
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Linuxluver:

 

rb99:

 

 

 

Always thought one of the advantages of FPTP was that constituencies somehow directly got an MP of the party that the majority voted for, non of this list stuff.

 

May well be wrong, will happily admit I'm very uneducated in such matters.

 

 

Under FPTP in NZ, after Social Credit and then Values appeared, you didn't get an MP the majority voted for. You got an MP the largest minority voted for.  BIG difference. 

 

That's how Muldoon was able to win a majority in both 1978 and 1981 with about 40% of the vote...or less. The votes that went to Social Credit and Values generally elected no one (except Bruce Beetham in Rangitikei for Social Credit, in a bye-election, and then he held the seat for a couple of terms). 

One of the reasons we got MMP was an election where Social Credit got 21% of the vote, but only 2 MPs out of 99. 

 

 

 

 

Haha and we really want Social Credit in Government....I say thank goodness for FPP back then


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  Reply # 1683998 7-Dec-2016 15:07
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Linuxluver:

 

rb99:

 

 

 

Always thought one of the advantages of FPTP was that constituencies somehow directly got an MP of the party that the majority voted for, non of this list stuff.

 

May well be wrong, will happily admit I'm very uneducated in such matters.

 

 

Under FPTP in NZ, after Social Credit and then Values appeared, you didn't get an MP the majority voted for. You got an MP the largest minority voted for.  BIG difference. 

 

That's how Muldoon was able to win a majority in both 1978 and 1981 with about 40% of the vote...or less. The votes that went to Social Credit and Values generally elected no one (except Bruce Beetham in Rangitikei for Social Credit, in a bye-election, and then he held the seat for a couple of terms). 

One of the reasons we got MMP was an election where Social Credit got 21% of the vote, but only 2 MPs out of 99. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I had forgotten about Social Credit and Values. Quite liked some of Values policies, Social Credit was just scary.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

A Tiger in Africa, probably escaped from the Zoo.

 

 


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  Reply # 1684024 7-Dec-2016 15:34
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Being fairly recently of this land, I cannot claim knowledge of this Social Credit and/or Values party/parties. Would this be roughly equivalent..... https://www.loonyparty.com/about/policy-proposals/ Would add smiley face if I know how to.





rb99


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  Reply # 1684026 7-Dec-2016 15:38
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rb99:

 

Being fairly recently of this land, I cannot claim knowledge of this Social Credit and/or Values party/parties. Would this be roughly equivalent..... https://www.loonyparty.com/about/policy-proposals/ Would add smiley face if I know how to.

 

 

Some info in the links below. Social Credit started life in Canada I believe (probably wrong on that I was very young at the time), Values was an early Green Party

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Values_Party

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_Party_(New_Zealand)





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

A Tiger in Africa, probably escaped from the Zoo.

 

 


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  Reply # 1684034 7-Dec-2016 15:50
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Thanks, had a quick looks through. Must admit, this sounds quite radical even today - 'the Values Party emphasised proposing alternative policies, rather than taking only an oppositionist stance to the ruling parties.' (from Wikipedia link)





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  Reply # 1684035 7-Dec-2016 15:51
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SaltyNZ:

 

rb99:

 

 

 

Always thought one of the advantages of FPTP was that constituencies somehow directly got an MP of the party that the majority voted for, non of this list stuff.

 

May well be wrong, will happily admit I'm very uneducated in such matters.

 

 

 

 

Well, with MMP you do get an MP of the party that the majority voted for. You also get MPs in proportion to what everyone voted for.

 

 

Right. But there's no need for 60 list MPs. I think MMP is a good thing, and it was a scam to use its introduction as an excuse (a) to increase Parliamentary seats to 120+, and (b) to give so much voting power to the Party Faithful as opposed to the People's Representatives.

 

 


gzt

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  Reply # 1684346 7-Dec-2016 22:36
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Key's reported comments about not wanting to be a lame duck prime minister may indicate the caucus was getting a bit fractious. Other than that, buy low, sell high!

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  Reply # 1684415 8-Dec-2016 08:49
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SaltyNZ:

 

Well, with MMP you do get an MP of the party that the majority voted for. You also get MPs in proportion to what everyone voted for.

 

 

Sort of ... you should look into the algorithm for allocating votes.





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  Reply # 1684439 8-Dec-2016 09:16
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MikeB4:

 

 

 

I had forgotten about Social Credit and Values. Quite liked some of Values policies, Social Credit was just scary.

 

 

Interestingly, Social Credit was just ahead of their time. 

You know the trillions in "quantitative easing" created out of thin air to "re-capitalise" the zombie banks after the GFC? Straight out the Social Credit playbook. 

We're actually already doing what they called for 60 years ago.....but the problem is only the people at the top are getting the money.

 

Spread it around. UBI or revolution: take your pick.  





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  Reply # 1684442 8-Dec-2016 09:20
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dafman:

 

Linuxluver:

 

dafman:

 

MikeB4: Parties from the outer reaches of the spectrum don't really gain traction in NZ. Voting here is at the centre/centre left and I don't see the change in leadership impacting on that.

 

Historically that is the case. But, as Brexit, Trump etc is showing us, history is not necessary being repeated now the winds of populism are beginning to blow. And NZ may not be immune.

 

 

Brexit and Trump happened in countries where the political system frustrates the majority. The US is barely a democracy at all and the UK has yet another "majority" government barely 35% voted for. 

 

NZ got out of that club in 1996 when we had our first MMP election. Being able to elect people you want is a huge 'release valve' for pent up political pressures. We - and every other country that fairly represents voters in the legislature - likely won't see extremists actually holding power. They may win seats....but not power. They would need more than 50% of the vote to get it. In the US they got it with 25% of voters support - only half vote because the system IS rigged - and in the UK 35% thanks to First Past the Post grossly distorting voter intentions.  

 

In a way it's great at highlighting the myths around voting systems. FPTP is supposed to deliver "stability" ....and manifestly has not. Whereas PR is supposed to deliver instability.....yet manifestly has not. Countries with PR are able to smooth out the bumps much more easily than the wild lurches FPTP entails (Trump + Brexit).

 

Staring right at it.....yet some people still believe the old myths. 

 

 

 

 

Brexit and Trump happened in countries where the political system exacerbated income inequality. The UK and US are right up there. So is NZ if you look at the stats.

 



Sure...that's the effect. I'm talking about the causes. 

NZ hasn't elected a Trump and we won't be doing a Brexit. Yes, we currently suffer under the failed (for most people) neo-liberal "trickle-up" policies of the National Party......but that's fixable.  





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  Reply # 1684443 8-Dec-2016 09:24
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trig42:

 

 

 

In my electorate (Auckland Central), we actually have three MPs. Nikki Kaye (who won the seat), Jacinda Ardern (who narrowly missed it, but was high on Labour's list) and Denise Roche (Green List, ran as candidate in AK Central).

 

I suspect there are other electorates out there with similar representation, and I think it is a good thing. I live on Waiheke Island, and all three of them are accessible (Nikki and Jacinda hold meetings and have been seen around the island a fair bit - I was at the RSA for a NZvSA rugby game and Nikki Kaye was there too). Denise Roche lives on Waiheke.

 

 

It's the same in Maungakiekie.....several 'local' (defacto) MPs, each from a different party. When I lived in the Horowhenua, a rural electorate, we had a local MP and two list MPs with offices locally. 

 

Where I live now, I know the local Nat MP doesn't give a rat's about climate change, but the rest (all list) do. MMP is awesome in this respect. You don't end up with only one MP who makes it clear they have no time for your views should do dare express them. I once had an MP tell me to my face he wasn't interested because he knew I didn't vote for him.

That's FPTP...and why we should all be glad it's gone.  





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  Reply # 1684446 8-Dec-2016 09:28
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Linuxluver:

 

MikeB4:

 

 

 

I had forgotten about Social Credit and Values. Quite liked some of Values policies, Social Credit was just scary.

 

 

Interestingly, Social Credit was just ahead of their time. 

You know the trillions in "quantitative easing" created out of thin air to "re-capitalise" the zombie banks after the GFC? Straight out the Social Credit playbook. 

We're actually already doing what they called for 60 years ago.....but the problem is only the people at the top are getting the money.

 

Spread it around. UBI or revolution: take your pick.  

 

 

 

 

I was thinking the same as I was doing some reading about Bruce Beetham.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

A Tiger in Africa, probably escaped from the Zoo.

 

 


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