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  # 1785383 21-May-2017 08:16
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nakedmolerat:
@nathan:

 

what do you call a 53 year old man who has sex with a 9 year old girl?

 

 

 

1.6B people call him the prophet of Islam.

 



What do you call a marriage of a 6 year old Isabella of Valois and King Richard II of England, 600 years ago? Her parents approved it and so are the people of that time including the Church.

I didn't realize that you are that naive.

 

indeed, the world would certainly be a better place with no religion


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  # 1785384 21-May-2017 08:23
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Geektastic:

ArcticSilver:


I may hold a unpopular belief here, but personally I am of the opinion that we don't want other religions/cultures that are opposed to our culture/belief's as a country becoming normal place in NZ.


I don't mind others having their own belief's, but if you come to NZ you should integrate with our culture, our way of doing things rather than holding onto your ideals and creating a world of them to live in.


So many cities have huge problems with cultural wars and are divided from within because of people refusing to integrate and instead forming their own city that conforms within a city.


 


Too many people forget, it is a privilege to come here, not a right. I wouldn't go to their country and demand my belief's are followed, I would try and accept theirs or at least integrate with their way of doing things.



 


I've seen what happens to countries that allow unfettered multiculturalism. I could show you parts of Britain that, were it not for the green hills in the distance, you would not believe you were anywhere but Eurasia. There is a place just south of where my MiL lives in the north of England known locally as 'The Khyber Pass' and it really does look as though someone uprooted an entire town from northern Pakistan or somewhere and transplanted it: you don't see people of Indian/Pakistani descent but dressed in jeans etc - no, they are in the full on clothing and headwear that you would see if you went on holiday to that part of the world. The shop signs are in Hindi, the women in full on Islamic clothes - it's a bizarre sight, even to me, because I grew up down south where that sort of thing does not happen so much outside London itself.


There are certainly bits of London which are not dissimilar either. Southall, for example.


Unfortunately it's very hard (certainly in the UK) to actually have a conversation about it in a constructive manner without it descending into  a sort of farce where anyone objecting to it is closed down as a 'racist'. I can't offer you a solution but Britain today is several light years away from what it was only 60 years ago and not everyone who thinks that is not a good plan is dismissible as some sort of racist thug. It's something to bear in mind when considering how to manage this sort of issue here, at least.




Cultural diversity enriches society and should be embraced.




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  # 1785388 21-May-2017 08:39
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Resnick: I grew up in a small country where religion dictated the school I attended, the friends I could have and the sports I played.  Exclusion of anybody based upon a religious belief isn't a good thing imo.

 

I don't mind a small number of 'xyz only' places, particularly if it is giving someone a 'safe zone'.  This should probably be qualified with 'as long as it does not cause me any significant inconvenience'.  I had a Christian influence growing up, and I continue to hold views sympathetic to that faith.  I like to think I'm open minded enough to not be concerned about a different religious group having their own customs and special spaces, again 'as long as it does not cause me or the general population any significant inconvenience'.

 

Your experience sounds to be at the extreme end of the scale, and I'm pleased for you and your future?) family that you got out of that place.

 

 

 

ArcticSilver: I may hold a unpopular belief here, but personally I am of the opinion that we don't want other religions/cultures that are opposed to our culture/belief's as a country becoming normal place in NZ.

 

I don't mind others having their own belief's, but if you come to NZ you should integrate with our culture, our way of doing things rather than holding onto your ideals and creating a world of them to live in.

 

So many cities have huge problems with cultural wars and are divided from within because of people refusing to integrate and instead forming their own city that conforms within a city.

 

Too many people forget, it is a privilege to come here, not a right. I wouldn't go to their country and demand my belief's are followed, I would try and accept theirs or at least integrate with their way of doing things.

 

We've seen significant issues that the UK has been having with various migrant groups, and it concerns me that NZ has blindly been opening the door to the same issues.  In the last 20 years we have seen immigration accelerate under the Labour and continue under the National government.  I don't remember voting in a referendum to change the cultural makeup of the country.

 

I think on the whole, NZ has or is becoming a more tolerant society.  What I can't fathom is why we would import intolerance!  If we went to any one of a number of countries and demanded our own religious freedom (I'll use Christianity as an example), we would be persecuted and/or have violence inflicted upon us.

 

 

 

Geektastic: Unfortunately it's very hard (certainly in the UK) to actually have a conversation about it in a constructive manner without it descending into  a sort of farce where anyone objecting to it is closed down as a 'racist'. I can't offer you a solution but Britain today is several light years away from what it was only 60 years ago and not everyone who thinks that is not a good plan is dismissible as some sort of racist thug. It's something to bear in mind when considering how to manage this sort of issue here, at least.

 

You are absolutely right that it is hard to have a conversation along those lines.  This thread has, so far, been reasoned and respectful.  I've been a part of other social media discussions (when the gay marriage law was under review as an example) where a reasoned argument was met with personal attacks.  Posters to that thread were encouraging tolerance of gay marriage, but were completely intolerant of another perspective.  You'll likely be aware that this is common and frustrating.  I agree that the 'racist' card is pulled out too often to shut down a reasonable debate, and this makes it hard to continue the discussion.  Many people who have that kinda crap pulled on them will withdraw from the discussion, so the bullying behaviour appears to win.

 

 

 

NonprayingMantis: virtually every bathroom and changing room has a 'men only and 'women only' variants

 

Yes, and as you will know the lines are being blurred.  There was a discussion around Marlborough Girls' College deciding a transgender teen, who was originally directed to use unisex bathrooms, was OK to use the girls bathrooms.  One quote advises girls could "just go where they feel comfortable".  Hang on.  WHat if accommodating one person makes a significant number feel uncomfortable?  I understand that being a teenage girl comes with a number of biological challenges and a girls bathroom may be a 'safe zone' for some teens.

 

Statistics tells us a not insignificant percentage of girls at that school have been molested by a male, and sharing a bathroom with someone who is physically a male carries risk (in the victims eyes).  What about their rights?  The article goes on to say If other students were uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with a transgender student, options could be made available for those students, such as unisex bathrooms.  So to accommodate one person, where there is reaqson to believe that a larger number will feel less safe, the larger number have to modify their behaviour?

 

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/81590796/marlborough-girls-college-transgender-student-stefani-muollogray-to-use-girls-bathroom 

 

 

 

Rikkitic: Sometimes it is hard to know where to draw the line, and any place you choose is always going to be somewhat arbitrary. There is a saying that your freedom to swing your fist ends at my face. I think it has to be something like that. Respect the things you can, even if you don't agree with them, but draw the line at the other things.

 

I've not heard that saying before, but I like it a lot.  I agree, it is often tough to know where to draw the line.

 

 

 

I had a few more paragraphs, but have removed them so as not to hijack the OP's post any further.  I am enjoying the respectful discussion.





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  # 1785391 21-May-2017 08:43
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MikeB4: Cultural diversity enriches society and should be embraced.

 

I agree.

 

There does seem to be a point where, as best I am reading and seeing, it starts to turn sour.





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  # 1785392 21-May-2017 08:54
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NonprayingMantis:

 

tdgeek:

 

gzt: Yep. Do as NZers do and form an association for women and include sporting activities. Tick.

 

Maybe I could form an association for men, include sporting activities and a sign that women are banned. I assume that would not contravene any laws?

 

 

 

 

correct.  it would be fine.

 

or you could join an organisation that already is men only, like the freemasons.

 

 

My point is, that while its fine to embrace other cultures, at some point, the respect of NZ becomes diluted as other cultures take over in a discriminatory way. I could open a Muslim only store, banning everyone else. Its public, as is the school, which I read is state integrated. So my store is on public land, but shoppers shop in my private and invitation only shop. To me, that isn't embracing other cultures.    


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  # 1785393 21-May-2017 08:57
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Dynamic:

 

 

 

I don't mind a small number of 'xyz only' places, particularly if it is giving someone a 'safe zone'.  This should probably be qualified with 'as long as it does not cause me any significant inconvenience'.

 

Seems to me that you do not agree with these other cultures activities, but as long as they don't affect you, your ok. That is favouring segregation, and the opposite of embracing other cultures. 


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  # 1785404 21-May-2017 09:48
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@nathan:

 

nakedmolerat:

What do you call a marriage of a 6 year old Isabella of Valois and King Richard II of England, 600 years ago? Her parents approved it and so are the people of that time including the Church.

I didn't realize that you are that naive.

 

indeed, the world would certainly be a better place with no religion

 

 

Ok - I will state the obvious. One of my Professor in History said this in his first lecture - in 200 years time, people *may* view Rugby as a barbaric game and it may be banned entirely because of the injury.

 

His message was: when you look at the history, you need to see from the lens of the people at the time. In this case, Isabella, died at the age of 19.

 

There was no antibiotic, no advance surgery etc. Their life expectancy is short and therefore their view in life is also different. At the time of the Roman empire, they are expected to get married as young as the age of 13.

 

Heck, in the state of Virginia, you can get married as young as 12 years old. They have just raised the age to 16, 2 or 3 years ago. New Hampshire, kids can still get married as young as 13 legally.






 
 
 
 


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  # 1785407 21-May-2017 10:04
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MikeB4: Cultural diversity enriches society and should be embraced.

 

 

Not unrestrained it doesn't. It ruins it.






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  # 1785413 21-May-2017 10:48
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tdgeek: I could open a Muslim only store, banning everyone else. Its public, as is the school, which I read is state integrated. So my store is on public land, but shoppers shop in my private and invitation only shop. To me, that isn't embracing other cultures.

This is ridiculous. Get some perspective.

This is a one day social sporting event held at a school on a Saturday. By a community group.

This is unremarkable in the extreme. There would be any number of women's groups meeting socially in schools and other community facilities on a Saturday.

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  # 1785414 21-May-2017 10:50
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Moist ridiculous thing I've read to date.


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  # 1785415 21-May-2017 10:52
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tdgeek:

 

Dynamic: 

 

I don't mind a small number of 'xyz only' places, particularly if it is giving someone a 'safe zone'.  This should probably be qualified with 'as long as it does not cause me any significant inconvenience'.

 

Seems to me that you do not agree with these other cultures activities, but as long as they don't affect you, your ok. That is favouring segregation, and the opposite of embracing other cultures.

 

I think there is a difference between a few cultural activities that are reserved for that culture or group, vs a culture or group being completely closed off or isolated.  I guess where that line is depends on your perspective.

 

The Amish community in the US might be an example of 'good' segregation where a community has themselves chosen to limit exposure to the outside world in pursuit of a life strong in faith and simplicity.  Unfortunately this is spoiled by recurrences of several forms of abuse within the community.

 

I hear mentions of calls for Sharia Law by communities (or of instances where harsher end of Sharia Law seems to have been quietly implemented by community leaders) of Muslims in the UK and other western nations.  In my opinion there must be one law for all in a country, and that law should be blind to the colour of your skin, your religion, or the size of your parents wallet.  If you don't like that, perhaps you need to move (back) to the country where that practise is law.





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  # 1785417 21-May-2017 10:55
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nakedmolerat: One of my Professor in History said this in his first lecture - in 200 years time, people *may* view Rugby as a barbaric game and it may be banned entirely because of the injury.

 

His message was: when you look at the history, you need to see from the lens of the people at the time.

 

This statement is fantastic, and that smart and simple reasoning is often forgotten.





"4 wheels move the body.  2 wheels move the soul."

“Don't believe anything you read on the net. Except this. Well, including this, I suppose.” Douglas Adams



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  # 1785424 21-May-2017 11:09
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Geektastic: 

 

Not unrestrained it doesn't. It ruinschanges it.

 

 

My personal dilemma, and the reason I started this thread, is that I do believe in tolerance and am against anyone telling people how they should live. Different ways of thinking and being are enriching and I am very much in favour of the infusion of fresh ideas that immigrants bring, not to mention the services they provide. Without immigrants every dairy in New Zealand would probably have to close.

 

At the same time, I am very much opposed to all forms of repression. I am not an expert on Muslim family life but I would imagine that most Muslim girls do not object to the requirements of dress and behaviour put upon them, as they have grown up in that culture and these things are part of their norms. Also the demands of modesty and avoidance of the male gaze.

 

Yet, as someone raised with western values, who often finds even those repressive, I have a hard time accepting that females should have to cover up because males might look at them. My values tell me that if seeing an underdressed female is a problem, it is a male problem, and the males in question should quit trying to turn it into a female one. There is an easy solution. It is called looking away. It stems from accepting personal responsibility. But that belief comes from my own cultural background.

 

I think immigrants who come to New Zealand and other western countries should celebrate their culture and make it part of their new life. That has an enriching effect on everyone. But I also think that immigrants have to adapt to the countries they wish to live in. They should not expect to be able to maintain all of the values and traditions of their homelands. Getting along with others means compromise. We owe it to new citizens to respect their differences. They need to do the same to us.

 

Girls in this country should not be brought up in such a way, that having the fathers of their friends watch them play netball makes them 'uncomfortable'. The fact that a father wants to cheer his daughter on and be involved in her sporting activities is something to be welcomed. The values of those girls and that school should be respected, but they should also be questioned. That is the first step in a process of change.

 

 

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  # 1785426 21-May-2017 11:18
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Yeah yeah yeah Muslims are all 'foreigners'. Utterly and completely ridiculous.



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  # 1785428 21-May-2017 11:35
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Most Muslims in New Zealand are likely to be immigrants and that is the perspective I am referring to. At no time have I suggested they are 'foreigners'.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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