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5385 posts

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  # 1785818 22-May-2017 10:35
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The article the OP linked to doesn't particularly bother me.  The netball tournament is specifically for Muslim women.  They are putting in place rules (presumably) appropriate within their culture values.  Under those values it pushes the boundary of decency for men to be watching women compete in netball uniforms.  The concerned dad could let his daughter join a regular netball club and watch her every Saturday.

 

Dads never went backstage at my daughters ballet recitals. That too was about decency, albeit with a different threshold.

 

The Human Rights Act allows clubs to engage in what would otherwise be unlawful discrimination (sex, age, ethnicity, religion, political beliefs, sexuality, disability etc).  It would be perfectly legal to have male only gyms.

 

There is also an exemption that allows for sex-specific public facilities in the interest of 'decency'.  That's really designed for bathrooms etc but you might interpret it to mean you can have a female only session at a public pool. 

 

If we can reasonably meet people's cultural needs they will feel recognised and able to participate in society. They are much less likely to feel marginalised and therefore drawn to any form of extremism.  Being a kiwi tends to mellow out cultural values within a generation or two.

 

 





Mike

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  # 1785853 22-May-2017 10:48
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jonathan18:

 

 

 

I assume you're from that hotbed of fundamentalist whiteness that is Christchurch?! A city well-known for its progressive thinking and non-racist attitudes...

 

 

 

 

This is just unnecessary and does nothing to add to this discussion.

 

 

 

jonathan18:

 

My favourite aspect of this kind of argument is the assumption taken that you, ArcticSilver, express to speak for the collective "we", as if there's indeed such a homogenous.  Well, I'm no doubt as much of a "New Zealander" (whatever that means) as you, and you don't represent me or my views!

 

Pre-Trump, I may have dismissed these kinds of posts as those of a rabid minority of bigots, but Trump's victory is good evidence we ignore this at our peril... Doesn't make it any less obnoxious to read, though.

 

 

I don't feel in any way I have implied I am speaking for everyone, I have just shared what my belief's are.

 

If you feel I am so wrong, please try and convince me as to why I am. Is that not better for both of us? Calling names, resorting to labels and dismissing these posts is just trivializing the importance of a healthy debate, you might not like me saying it but just like the mainstream media today you are not helping people make informed decisions.

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  # 1785862 22-May-2017 11:03
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jonathan18:

 

Pre-Trump, I may have dismissed these kinds of posts as those of a rabid minority of bigots, but Trump's victory is good evidence we ignore this at our peril... Doesn't make it any less obnoxious to read, though.

 

 

Trump's victory is good demonstration of how people who feel marginalised behave (in his case a large number of 'Joe Average' blue collar workers).





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  # 1786092 22-May-2017 16:48
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The girls probably enjoy the time away from being constantly watched by male relatives. Have you thought of that?
Ask THEM what they want.


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  # 1786110 22-May-2017 17:37
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pctek:

 

The girls probably enjoy the time away from being constantly watched by male relatives. Have you thought of that?
Ask THEM what they want.

 

 


Why? They're children. Of what relevance is what they want? They must do as they are told until 18.






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  # 1786119 22-May-2017 18:11
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I personally don't have a problem with this restriction in this case, at the end of the day they can always move clubs/school. It is a private event after all.

 

That being said, I do think it brings up a interesting discussion regarding cultures integrating in NZ which I have detailed.

 

 


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  # 1786132 22-May-2017 18:41
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why is it that when people come to live in NZ they have to conform to the pakeha rules, whereas when pakeha came to NZ they don't follow any Maori rules?

 

ArcticSilver:

 

I may hold a unpopular belief here, but personally I am of the opinion that we don't want other religions/cultures that are opposed to our culture/belief's as a country becoming normal place in NZ.

 

I don't mind others having their own belief's, but if you come to NZ you should integrate with our culture, our way of doing things rather than holding onto your ideals and creating a world of them to live in.

 

So many cities have huge problems with cultural wars and are divided from within because of people refusing to integrate and instead forming their own city that conforms within a city.

 

 

 

Too many people forget, it is a privilege to come here, not a right. I wouldn't go to their country and demand my belief's are followed, I would try and accept theirs or at least integrate with their way of doing things.

 

 

also when pakeha landed, i don't think for one second they didn't see it as their right to do whatever they wanted. still do apparently!





Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


 
 
 
 


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  # 1786135 22-May-2017 18:47
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tdgeek:

 

ArcticSilver:

 

I may hold a unpopular belief here, but personally I am of the opinion that we don't want other religions/cultures that are opposed to our culture/belief's as a country becoming normal place in NZ.

 

I don't mind others having their own belief's, but if you come to NZ you should integrate with our culture, our way of doing things rather than holding onto your ideals and creating a world of them to live in.

 

So many cities have huge problems with cultural wars and are divided from within because of people refusing to integrate and instead forming their own city that conforms within a city.

 

 

 

Too many people forget, it is a privilege to come here, not a right. I wouldn't go to their country and demand my belief's are followed, I would try and accept theirs or at least integrate with their way of doing things.

 

 

Thats the thing, if you did go to their country and not follow their requirements, you might be arrested, as has happened. As the saying goes, when in NZ do what NZ'ers do. And that doesn't include discrimination

 

 

The game was not a public event, was it? Say I want to have a party and you're not invited, how is that discrimination? It's like going to the Halberg awards -I'd like to go but you just can't. And then there's women only swimming at the public swimming pool...





Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.




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  # 1786140 22-May-2017 19:05
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Maybe the children should be asked what their preference is. Maybe they don't have a problem with it. Maybe it is only the adults who have a problem.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 1786149 22-May-2017 19:20
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Rikkitic:

 

Maybe the children should be asked what their preference is. Maybe they don't have a problem with it. Maybe it is only the adults who have a problem.

 

 

 

 

You can ask them.

 

You can also ask a child if they want to get into the car of a dude with free candy and they might just say yes.





Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.




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  # 1786155 22-May-2017 19:44
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Sorry but that is just silly. It has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 1786178 22-May-2017 20:15
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ArcticSilver:

 

A good example of this issue is Church Corner in Christchurch. You might notice that almost none of the 20 odd (a wild guess) stores in this area are owned by born kiwi's. 

 

 

 

Some of the stores have menu's that do not include English. When visiting these stores you are not treated like a local would treat a local, you're very much treated like you're in their home country.

 

They have effectively built a mini city within our city. This is a huge problem, because they don't follow our rules, our ideal's and a lot of them do not even speak English!

 

As they get bigger they'll demand more rights, police the area how it suits them and further build on their segregation. They may not have malicious intent, this is just what they know and how they were brought up, but this is extremely detrimental to a society to have this segregation. 

 

 

 

 

What a complete load of bollocks. I shop regularly at Dragon PC and 3 restaurants and each experience is enough to warrant my return. I pay GST on each transaction and speak english wherever I go. I cant complain about my treatment at all. Unlike walking into Nowl Lemming where these white guys are too busy talking amongst themselves and have no interest at all in serving a customer - thats a store that consistently never disappoints in their ability to underwhelm.


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  # 1786444 23-May-2017 09:31
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Kyanar:

 

tdgeek:

 

 Womens gyms. I don't have an issue with that. Same as women's toilets. I am unsure if there is an enacted law that will get me arrested if I ventured into a womens toilet or a womens gym

 

 

You would be trespassing. I do believe that these establishments actually have an exemption from the gender discrimination clause of the Human Rights Act on the basis that they are providing a service that women would otherwise feel uncomfortable utilising. Personally, I think that the basis of that is bollocks - when you go to the gym you go there to work out, not perv at the ladies (or guys, whichever) - I've yet to meet anyone who has ever done that, other than anecdotally saying between sets "oh wow, she's hot" or whatever. That said, they have a valid reason for existence in that they provide equipment more suited to most women's gym needs, which a regular Anytime, Snap or Jetts does not.

 

 

The HRA (s44) prohibits those provisioning good or services from refusing to provide them based on one of the prohibited forms of discrimination (s21).   However, s44 also provides a limited exemption for clubs. 

 

This allows for example a senior citizens club to exclude younger people, it allows men's and women clubs. It allows women only gyms - where such gyms are membership based.  Clubs have right of trespass over their premises so they can exclude non-members. 

 

A lot of men's clubs decided to allow women members because they needed to increase membership or amalgamated with clubs that had female members or chose to for other reasons.

 

You could legally establish a male only gym (membership based) but I've never heard of one.  Is there any demand?

 

 

 

 





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  # 1786447 23-May-2017 09:33
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MikeAqua:

 

 

 

You could legally establish a male only gym (membership based) but I've never heard of one.  Is there any demand?

 

 

 

Purely guessing, I think the demand is the other way round - have women in a male gym would probably increase profits. Banning them = loss and bankruptcy!





Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


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  # 1786484 23-May-2017 10:11
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ArcticSilver:

 

jonathan18:

 

I assume you're from that hotbed of fundamentalist whiteness that is Christchurch?! A city well-known for its progressive thinking and non-racist attitudes...

 

 

This is just unnecessary and does nothing to add to this discussion.

 

jonathan18:

 

My favourite aspect of this kind of argument is the assumption taken that you, ArcticSilver, express to speak for the collective "we", as if there's indeed such a homogenous.  Well, I'm no doubt as much of a "New Zealander" (whatever that means) as you, and you don't represent me or my views!

 

Pre-Trump, I may have dismissed these kinds of posts as those of a rabid minority of bigots, but Trump's victory is good evidence we ignore this at our peril... Doesn't make it any less obnoxious to read, though.

 

 

I don't feel in any way I have implied I am speaking for everyone, I have just shared what my belief's are.

 

If you feel I am so wrong, please try and convince me as to why I am. Is that not better for both of us? Calling names, resorting to labels and dismissing these posts is just trivializing the importance of a healthy debate, you might not like me saying it but just like the mainstream media today you are not helping people make informed decisions.

 

 

Sorry, but I don't believe it's feasible in such a forum to hold a meaningful debate given the nature of many of the posts, especially your own. These posts reek of WMPS (white man's privilege syndrome - a term I just made up. but I'm sure it's in use elsewhere!), whereby there's an inability to understand or acknowledge that one's own viewpoint is so heavily conditioned by one's own relative position in society - gender, race, ethnicity...

 

That you can't see your choice of words demonstrates this is part of the problem. That you can so easily use the binary of "them" and "us" and think that actually means something inherent and that it's shared by others like "us", that you're so comfortable generalising based on what someone looks like or the language they speak... Your language and message isn't that different, I would posit, to the response of other NZers to ethnic minorities in times gone by, eg early Chinese immigrants. Indeed, the wider argument has usually been fairly consistent across the decades - different culture" are ok, but as long as they assimilate, ie become like "us". 

 

My comment re Trump (and similarly with the pro-Brexit vote) was that clearly your views are shared by many in NZ, and this is a potentially powerful block both politically and socially. Clearly, I think you're in the wrong and believe these views are potentially (and in reality already are) so incredibly damaging to society, so dismissing them out of hand isn't really an option (see Trump et al).

 

I'm a firm believer in the value of a "liberal" education in helping people understand this, eg undertaking a much-derided BA or study generally in the social sciences or humanities. I'd put down my uni education in this area as one of the key contributors towards my attitudes and approach to such topics. There's also a growing trend to put employees through cultural awareness training (bring out the nanny state, PC gone mad clichés!), which can I'm sure have some beneficial effect, but I imagine those most in need of "re-education" will be those most opposed to it.

 

New Zealanders like to compare themselves to their cousins across the ditch, and pat ourselves on our collective back for avoiding the hideous and systemic racism that's engrained there; in reality, we're really not that much better, and I have fears that things are only going to get worse...


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