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681 posts

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  # 1786536 23-May-2017 11:07
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jonathan18:

 

 

 

Sorry, but I don't believe it's feasible in such a forum to hold a meaningful debate given the nature of many of the posts, especially your own. These posts reek of WMPS (white man's privilege syndrome - a term I just made up. but I'm sure it's in use elsewhere!), whereby there's an inability to understand or acknowledge that one's own viewpoint is so heavily conditioned by one's own relative position in society - gender, race, ethnicity...

 

That you can't see your choice of words demonstrates this is part of the problem. That you can so easily use the binary of "them" and "us" and think that actually means something inherent and that it's shared by others like "us", that you're so comfortable generalising based on what someone looks like or the language they speak... Your language and message isn't that different, I would posit, to the response of other NZers to ethnic minorities in times gone by, eg early Chinese immigrants. Indeed, the wider argument has usually been fairly consistent across the decades - different culture" are ok, but as long as they assimilate, ie become like "us". 

 

My comment re Trump (and similarly with the pro-Brexit vote) was that clearly your views are shared by many in NZ, and this is a potentially powerful block both politically and socially. Clearly, I think you're in the wrong and believe these views are potentially (and in reality already are) so incredibly damaging to society, so dismissing them out of hand isn't really an option (see Trump et al).

 

I'm a firm believer in the value of a "liberal" education in helping people understand this, eg undertaking a much-derided BA or study generally in the social sciences or humanities. I'd put down my uni education in this area as one of the key contributors towards my attitudes and approach to such topics. There's also a growing trend to put employees through cultural awareness training (bring out the nanny state, PC gone mad clichés!), which can I'm sure have some beneficial effect, but I imagine those most in need of "re-education" will be those most opposed to it.

 

New Zealanders like to compare themselves to their cousins across the ditch, and pat ourselves on our collective back for avoiding the hideous and systemic racism that's engrained there; in reality, we're really not that much better, and I have fears that things are only going to get worse...

 

 

Instead of expressing your outrage would it not be better to contribute some facts/knowledge to the argument/to defend your position?

 

 

 

Simply blaming my argument on as you say "WMPS" does nothing to prove your point, in fact, as above it is just further trivializing the debate. If this form is not appropriate then where is?

 

I'm happy to hear your opinion if you'll let me? 

 

 


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  # 1786617 23-May-2017 12:21
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jonathan18:

 

Sorry, but I don't believe it's feasible in such a forum to hold a meaningful debate given the nature of many of the posts, especially your own. These posts reek of WMPS (white man's privilege syndrome - a term I just made up. but I'm sure it's in use elsewhere!), whereby there's an inability to understand or acknowledge that one's own viewpoint is so heavily conditioned by one's own relative position in society - gender, race, ethnicity...

 

 

In other words, yours is the only opinion of any value because your mind has been enlightened and set free by your BA degree. 

 

The rest of us should stick to our echo chamber right?

 

 

 

 


 
 
 
 


gzt

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  # 1786777 23-May-2017 14:29
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jonathan18: I'm a firm believer in the value of a "liberal" education in helping people understand this, eg undertaking a much-derided BA or study generally in the social sciences or humanities. I'd put down my uni education in this area as one of the key contributors towards my attitudes and approach to such topics. There's also a growing trend to put employees through cultural awareness training (bring out the nanny state, PC gone mad clichés!), which can I'm sure have some beneficial effect, but I imagine those most in need of "re-education" will be those most opposed to it.

Luckily that's not the only way is it? : ).

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  # 1786788 23-May-2017 14:44
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jonathan18:

 

I'm a firm believer in the value of a "liberal" education in helping people understand this, eg undertaking a much-derided BA or study generally in the social sciences or humanities. I'd put down my uni education in this area as one of the key contributors towards my attitudes and approach to such topics. There's also a growing trend to put employees through cultural awareness training (bring out the nanny state, PC gone mad clichés!), which can I'm sure have some beneficial effect, but I imagine those most in need of "re-education" will be those most opposed to it.

 

 

People with a so called 'liberal education' can also end up very confident about the correctness of their opinions.  It's a different value set, therefore a different construction of 'us' and 'them' and it's still subjective and arbitrary.

 

I did a few arts papers at uni myself.  6 points per semester for no labs and two lectures per week = easy A's.

 

 





Mike

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  # 1786911 23-May-2017 16:57
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joker97:

 

 

 

Purely guessing, I think the demand is the other way round - have women in a male gym would probably increase profits. Banning them = loss and bankruptcy!

 

 

I completely disagree. No man I know who goes to the gym does so to perv on women, they do so to work out. Whether there are women there or not is completely irrelevant, and the reason why no-one has "men only" gyms is because there's no point banning women - since it doesn't matter to the men attending whether there isn't (or is) women. It seems to be a strictly women thing to think men being present is only because they want to perv and salivate, and that every man is a potential rapist.


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  # 1786992 23-May-2017 18:28
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Kyanar:

 

joker97:

 

 

 

Purely guessing, I think the demand is the other way round - have women in a male gym would probably increase profits. Banning them = loss and bankruptcy!

 

 

I completely disagree. No man I know who goes to the gym does so to perv on women, they do so to work out. Whether there are women there or not is completely irrelevant, and the reason why no-one has "men only" gyms is because there's no point banning women - since it doesn't matter to the men attending whether there isn't (or is) women. It seems to be a strictly women thing to think men being present is only because they want to perv and salivate, and that every man is a potential rapist.

 

 

 

 

Or that body image/self consciousness issues that can be prevalent in women and that by training in a female exclusive gymnasium it removes another hurdle in bettering ones health? 

 

My 11yo daughter feels uneasy with looks that she gets from men who probably would not even consider themselves predatory, there is just cause for female only situations, it is not a racial or religious thing, it happens everywhere, possibly some races and religions are worse than others which also doesn't help stereotypes


gzt

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  # 1787030 23-May-2017 20:11
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Kyanar:

tdgeek:


Womens gyms. I don't have an issue with that. Same as women's toilets. I am unsure if there is an enacted law that will get me arrested if I ventured into a womens toilet or a womens gym



You would be trespassing. I do believe that these establishments actually have an exemption from the gender discrimination clause of the Human Rights Act on the basis that they are providing a service that women would otherwise feel uncomfortable utilising. Personally, I think that the basis of that is bollocks - when you go to the gym you go there to work out, not perv at the ladies (or guys, whichever) - I've yet to meet anyone who has ever done that, other than anecdotally saying between sets "oh wow, she's hot" or whatever. That said, they have a valid reason for existence in that they provide equipment more suited to most women's gym needs, which a regular Anytime, Snap or Jetts does not.



^My bold your comments.

I don't get a whole lot of that being a bloke but on occasions I do feel uncomfortable about being the target of those comments. It's not for everyone. I can totally understand why a huge number of people don't want to deal with that all day every day.

Edit: Adding @Kyanar. It's from a few pages back so notification here is polite.

 
 
 
 


gzt

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  # 1787064 23-May-2017 20:51
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tdgeek

Edit: got over myself, removed comments.

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  # 1787532 24-May-2017 16:07
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Kyanar:

 

 

 

I completely disagree. No man I know who goes to the gym does so to perv on women, they do so to work out. Whether there are women there or not is completely irrelevant, and the reason why no-one has "men only" gyms is because there's no point banning women - since it doesn't matter to the men attending whether there isn't (or is) women. It seems to be a strictly women thing to think men being present is only because they want to perv and salivate, and that every man is a potential rapist.

 

 

The way I see it, if female-only gyms get women exercising who otherwise wouldn't they are performing a good service.

 

Also means fewer people in normal gyms. That's a faster workout for me so it's a win-win.





Mike

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  # 1787878 25-May-2017 08:37
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Kyanar:

 

joker97:

 

Purely guessing, I think the demand is the other way round - have women in a male gym would probably increase profits. Banning them = loss and bankruptcy!

 

 

I completely disagree. No man I know who goes to the gym does so to perv on women, they do so to work out. Whether there are women there or not is completely irrelevant, and the reason why no-one has "men only" gyms is because there's no point banning women - since it doesn't matter to the men attending whether there isn't (or is) women. It seems to be a strictly women thing to think men being present is only because they want to perv and salivate, and that every man is a potential rapist.

 

 

Curious about your basis for this. No doubt you have done surveys and have some peer-reviewed publications to back your assertion?

 

It seems to me that there's some number of men who like to look at women's bodies, and that for them lycra would be an improvement over street clothes. And it also seems to me that these men would be more prevalent in the body-conscious world of gym frequenters.

 

And probably that there would be men who go to look at other men's bodies, and women who go to look at other men's and/or women's bodies.

 

So it's not a strictly women thing to think some men are present at least partly because they want to perv and salivate.

 

 


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  # 1787992 25-May-2017 10:03
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frankv:

 

 

 

Curious about your basis for this. No doubt you have done surveys and have some peer-reviewed publications to back your assertion?

 

 

Followed by your own (admittedly logical) assumptions ...





Mike

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  # 1788035 25-May-2017 10:57
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nathan:

 

what do you call a 53 year old man who has sex with a 9 year old girl?

 

1.6B people call him the prophet of Islam.

 

 

What was the life expectancy of people back then? Also related, the infant mortality rate?


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  # 1788076 25-May-2017 12:41
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frankv:

 

 

 

Curious about your basis for this. No doubt you have done surveys and have some peer-reviewed publications to back your assertion?

 

It seems to me that there's some number of men who like to look at women's bodies, and that for them lycra would be an improvement over street clothes. And it also seems to me that these men would be more prevalent in the body-conscious world of gym frequenters.

 

It may seem to you that, but mine and literally all of my gym going acquaintances experiences say no, your assertion that also has no surveys or peer-reviewed publications is completely incorrect. Intriguingly enough, you can even see what I'm saying amongst the vast majority of commenters on major fitness forums like bodybuilding.com - people go to the gym to work out, not to perv at people.

 

Unless you count perving at themselves - gym going people are indeed quite body focused, but your assertion that they focus on other peoples bodies is flatly incorrect in reality.


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  # 1788118 25-May-2017 13:50
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Kyanar:

 

frankv:

 

 

 

Curious about your basis for this. No doubt you have done surveys and have some peer-reviewed publications to back your assertion?

 

It seems to me that there's some number of men who like to look at women's bodies, and that for them lycra would be an improvement over street clothes. And it also seems to me that these men would be more prevalent in the body-conscious world of gym frequenters.

 

It may seem to you that, but mine and literally all of my gym going acquaintances experiences say no, your assertion that also has no surveys or peer-reviewed publications is completely incorrect. Intriguingly enough, you can even see what I'm saying amongst the vast majority of commenters on major fitness forums like bodybuilding.com - people go to the gym to work out, not to perv at people.

 

Unless you count perving at themselves - gym going people are indeed quite body focused, but your assertion that they focus on other peoples bodies is flatly incorrect in reality.

 

 

A number of gyms have implemented policies to make gyms more widely-appealing environments.  At the gym I go to there are half dozen policies to eliminate behaviours, and clothing styles that make some people feel threatened/startled/uncomfortable.  The policies seem to be enforced to the extent that you don't often see them contravened.  The one time I have seen staff eject people it was two women ... not sure why.





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  # 1788211 25-May-2017 16:29
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MikeAqua:

 

Kyanar:

 

frankv:

 

 

 

Curious about your basis for this. No doubt you have done surveys and have some peer-reviewed publications to back your assertion?

 

It seems to me that there's some number of men who like to look at women's bodies, and that for them lycra would be an improvement over street clothes. And it also seems to me that these men would be more prevalent in the body-conscious world of gym frequenters.

 

It may seem to you that, but mine and literally all of my gym going acquaintances experiences say no, your assertion that also has no surveys or peer-reviewed publications is completely incorrect. Intriguingly enough, you can even see what I'm saying amongst the vast majority of commenters on major fitness forums like bodybuilding.com - people go to the gym to work out, not to perv at people.

 

Unless you count perving at themselves - gym going people are indeed quite body focused, but your assertion that they focus on other peoples bodies is flatly incorrect in reality.

 

 

A number of gyms have implemented policies to make gyms more widely-appealing environments.  At the gym I go to there are half dozen policies to eliminate behaviours, and clothing styles that make some people feel threatened/startled/uncomfortable.  The policies seem to be enforced to the extent that you don't often see them contravened.  The one time I have seen staff eject people it was two women ... not sure why.

 

 

The fact that gyms have to implement policies to control this behaviour suggests that, if it weren't controlled, this behaviour would be exhibited. i.e. that some people do want to perv at other people's bodies.

 

Perhaps the fact that clothing styles also have to be controlled means that some people go to gyms so that other people can perv at them?

 

 


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