Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | ... | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26


Fat bottom Trump
10405 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  # 1795663 6-Jun-2017 23:34
One person supports this post
Send private message

shk292:

 

Sorry, I promised not to argue with you but...

 

 

I also agreed not to engage with you any more and I want to keep my word. But I also want to be able to participate in what I see as an important discussion of principles.

 

ISIL, ISIS, Islamic State, Daesh, whatever you want to call them, are a bunch of evil murderous b*ards, make no mistake about that. I have no sympathy for them whatsoever. I don't care about them at all. But I do care about what are sometimes termed 'western values'. I care about where I live. I care about the kind of society I am part of. I care that I am seeing the end of personal privacy, that the unregulated nature of the Internet is about to cease, that the openness of liberal western democracies is being dismantled, that our civil rights are being eroded and we will soon all be living in a surveillance state. These things are all a direct result of the 9/11 attacks and everything that has come after. Al Quaeda won that one. They succeeded in bringing about exactly the kind of reaction they wanted. ISIL is doing precisely the same. They want our fear, our outrage, the crackdowns, the cessation of free speech and civil liberties. They want to make us behave like them. When they do that, they have won.

 

I don't want to live in the kind of society they are trying to bring about. Voltaire famously said (at least it is attributed to him) that 'I disagree with that you say but I will defend to my death your right to say it'. If any ISIL supporter steps out of line, even a little bit, he should be squashed like a bug. But he should not be denied the right to free speech or the other rights we all enjoy just because of what he believes. If we start punishing people for their ideas rather than their actions, we will have entered the world of Orwell's Thought Police. 

 

I think the problem of Islamic radicalisation is multi-generational. Vulnerable individuals need to be identified as early as possible and every conceivable effort must be made to change their thinking and give them a better path through life. But I don't see any value in denying them basic human rights because of something they might do. That is a bad guy tactic. It shouldn't be ours.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


4324 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1795664 6-Jun-2017 23:36
2 people support this post
Send private message

Fred99:

 

surfisup1000:

 

Heres a rather clever depiction of what is going on in the UK / Europe...

 

 

That's not clever at all.  It's stupid bigoted rubbish.  Shame.
Idiot memes aren't going to solve anything.  Seriously - get a life.

 

 

Putting on quite the show of hysterics aren't you?

 

The only problem with the cartoon in my view is that the sapling should have been portrayed as quite a bit taller.

 

Since you don't like cartoons, how about some words from one eminently more qualified than both you and I....

 

"Last month, the Wall Street Journal published an interview with France's director of domestic intelligence, Patrick Calvar. "The confrontation is inevitable," Mr. Calvar said. There are an estimated 15,000 Salafists among France's seven million Muslims, "whose radical-fundamentalist creed dominates many of the predominantly Muslim housing projects at the edges of cities such as Paris, Nice or Lyon. Their preachers call for a civil war, with all Muslims tasked to wipe out the miscreants down the street."

 

 

 

Shame on YOU for burying your head in the sand!  


 
 
 
 




Fat bottom Trump
10405 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  # 1795668 6-Jun-2017 23:48
2 people support this post
Send private message

surfisup1000:

 

"Last month, the Wall Street Journal published an interview with France's director of domestic intelligence, Patrick Calvar. "The confrontation is inevitable," Mr. Calvar said. There are an estimated 15,000 Salafists among France's seven million Muslims, "whose radical-fundamentalist creed dominates many of the predominantly Muslim housing projects at the edges of cities such as Paris, Nice or Lyon. Their preachers call for a civil war, with all Muslims tasked to wipe out the miscreants down the street."

 

 

 

 

Have you seen some of those housing projects? The French dumped the people they didn't want out of sight, out of mind, and let them fester for decades. There is no possible justification for terrorism, but the anger and despair that fuels it comes from somewhere. This problem could have been prevented years ago.

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


1711 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1795681 7-Jun-2017 06:52
Send private message

Rikkitic:

 

I also agreed not to engage with you any more and I want to keep my word. But I also want to be able to participate in what I see as an important discussion of principles.

 

ISIL, ISIS, Islamic State, Daesh, whatever you want to call them, are a bunch of evil murderous b*ards, make no mistake about that. I have no sympathy for them whatsoever. I don't care about them at all. But I do care about what are sometimes termed 'western values'. I care about where I live. I care about the kind of society I am part of. I care that I am seeing the end of personal privacy, that the unregulated nature of the Internet is about to cease, that the openness of liberal western democracies is being dismantled, that our civil rights are being eroded and we will soon all be living in a surveillance state. These things are all a direct result of the 9/11 attacks and everything that has come after. Al Quaeda won that one. They succeeded in bringing about exactly the kind of reaction they wanted. ISIL is doing precisely the same. They want our fear, our outrage, the crackdowns, the cessation of free speech and civil liberties. They want to make us behave like them. When they do that, they have won.

 

I don't want to live in the kind of society they are trying to bring about. Voltaire famously said (at least it is attributed to him) that 'I disagree with that you say but I will defend to my death your right to say it'. If any ISIL supporter steps out of line, even a little bit, he should be squashed like a bug. But he should not be denied the right to free speech or the other rights we all enjoy just because of what he believes. If we start punishing people for their ideas rather than their actions, we will have entered the world of Orwell's Thought Police. 

 

I think the problem of Islamic radicalisation is multi-generational. Vulnerable individuals need to be identified as early as possible and every conceivable effort must be made to change their thinking and give them a better path through life. But I don't see any value in denying them basic human rights because of something they might do. That is a bad guy tactic. It shouldn't be ours.

 

 

 

 

I understand what you mean.  Where we differ is that I think there is a limit to allowable freedom of speech, and that preaching the kind of things that ISIS and radical Islamists do, often in mosques in western countries (eg Abu Hamza) should be criminal acts in themselves.  I also think there is such a thing as a "criminal organisation" and that supporting such a thing should be illegal.

 

But, each to their own


2918 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  # 1795682 7-Jun-2017 07:14
Send private message

shk292:

 

I do believe in freedom, but also in responsibility.  Just as I wouldn't run a website encouraging people to persecute gays or blacks, and would expect to be arrested if I did, I don't think support of an organisation such as ISIS should be tolerated in a civilised society.

 

I think Corbyn's statement, like the man itself, is dangerous and idiotic

 

 

So... what organisations are acceptable to you? And how many of those actually allow current ISIS supporters to express their views and get change? 

 

 


2918 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  # 1795702 7-Jun-2017 08:28
2 people support this post
Send private message

shk292:

 

Where we differ is that I think there is a limit to allowable freedom of speech, and that preaching the kind of things that ISIS and radical Islamists do, often in mosques in western countries (eg Abu Hamza) should be criminal acts in themselves.  I also think there is such a thing as a "criminal organisation" and that supporting such a thing should be illegal.

 

 

Each time there's another restriction on our lives to "combat terrorism", we lose and ISIS wins. And the government wins, because those restrictions make it easier for the government to control the populace.

 

Also, ISIS *needs* the UK-resident Muslims to see themselves as different; to think of other Britons as their enemies. They need Westerners to treat Muslims as enemies, not the friends that 99.999% of them are. They need Farage and the UKIP and the racists and haters So, the real way to fight ISIS is to be rational about this, look for the good in Muslims and make them our friends. Make love not war.

 

 


1711 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1795718 7-Jun-2017 08:37
One person supports this post
Send private message

frankv:

 

So... what organisations are acceptable to you? And how many of those actually allow current ISIS supporters to express their views and get change? 

 

 

 

 

1st q - strange question - answer "the vast majority", specifically those that don't advocate the barbaric death of those who have different religious and/or ideological views.

 

2nd q - sorry, a bit convoluted, not sure if I understand.  I have no problem advocating for change.  There's a big difference between advocating for legislative change that would allow a currently illegal act, and advocating for your followers to do illegal acts, especially in cases where legal=barbaric murder.  I have a big problem with groups advocating violence against those who don't share their ideology, and those who support such groups.


 
 
 
 


4324 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1795719 7-Jun-2017 08:38
2 people support this post
Send private message

Rikkitic:

 

 

 

Have you seen some of those housing projects? The French dumped the people they didn't want out of sight, out of mind, and let them fester for decades. There is no possible justification for terrorism, but the anger and despair that fuels it comes from somewhere. This problem could have been prevented years ago.

 

 

We do agree on some things I see. 

 

The rise of islamic terrorism was predicted years ago  but the European authorities still accepted them by the hundreds of thousands. Now they are there, how do you deal with the problem? The french were stupid because there was no possible way to assimilate those people (whose real goal was reach the UK for the generous welfare benefits). 

 

I don't think their housing condition is the major reason some become radicals. It is simply because there are more of them, whether it is france, london, manchester, etc...The terrorists seem to come from all sorts of differing backgrounds, the one commonality  is their love of Islam. 

 

Islam and intolerance are closely related (jews are fleeing france already) ...If you are pro islamic immigration you have to be pro-intolerance as they will not change....

 

Here...

 

As long as the Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country they will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone. In fact, they may be featured in articles and films, stereotyped for their colorful uniqueness:

 

United States — Muslim 1.0%
Australia — Muslim 1.5%
Canada — Muslim 1.9%
China — Muslim 1%-2%
Italy — Muslim 1.5%
Norway — Muslim 1.8%

 

At 2% and 3% they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs:

 

Denmark — Muslim 2%
Germany — Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom — Muslim 2.7%
Spain — Muslim 4%
Thailand — Muslim 4.6%

 

From 5% on they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population.

 

They will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves — along with threats for failure to comply. (United States ).

 

France — Muslim 8%
Philippines — Muslim 5%
Sweden — Muslim 5%
Switzerland — Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands — Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad &Tobago — Muslim 5.8%

 

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islam is not to convert the world but to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

 

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions ( Paris –car-burnings) . Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats ( Amsterdam – Mohammed cartoons).

 

Guyana — Muslim 10%
India — Muslim 13.4%
Israel — Muslim 16%
Kenya — Muslim 10%
Russia — Muslim 10-15%

 

After reaching 20% expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning:

 

 

 

Ethiopia — Muslim 32.8%

 

At 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare:

 

Bosnia — Muslim 40%
Chad — Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon — Muslim 59.7%

 

From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels:

 

Albania — Muslim 70%
Malaysia — Muslim 60.4%
Qatar — Muslim 77.5%
Sudan — Muslim 70%

 

After 80% expect State run ethnic cleansing and genocide:

 

Bangladesh — Muslim 83%
Egypt — Muslim 90%
Gaza — Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia — Muslim 86.1%
Iran — Muslim 98%
Iraq — Muslim 97%
Jordan — Muslim 92%
Morocco — Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan — Muslim 97%
Palestine — Muslim 99%
Syria — Muslim 90%
Tajikistan — Muslim 90%
Turkey — Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates — Muslim 96%

 

100% will usher in the peace of ‘Dar-es-Salaam’ — the Islamic House of Peace — there’s supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim:

 

Afghanistan — Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia — Muslim 100%
Somalia — Muslim 100%
Yemen — Muslim 99.9%

 

Of course, that’s not the case. To satisfy their blood lust, Muslims then start killing each other for a variety of reasons.

 

 


4324 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1795720 7-Jun-2017 08:40
One person supports this post
Send private message

frankv:

 

Each time there's another restriction on our lives to "combat terrorism", we lose and ISIS wins. And the government wins, because those restrictions make it easier for the government to control the populace.

 

 

 

 

I've heard this before and I'm not convinced. ISIS just wants to kill us all, they don't care whether we have to go through increased airport security. 

 

In fact, ISIS would prefer not having the restrictions as it makes it easier to kill us. 


1711 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1795723 7-Jun-2017 08:42
Send private message

frankv:

 

Each time there's another restriction on our lives to "combat terrorism", we lose and ISIS wins. And the government wins, because those restrictions make it easier for the government to control the populace.

 

 

That makes you sound very anti-government.  I've served in the armed forces of democratic governments all my adult life and I think they're generally a good thing.  So for me, "government wins" generally means "society wins".  That doesn't mean I'm for any restriction that a government might dream up, and a restriction on eg encrypted communications would worry me (as well as being technically very difficult).  But this knee-jerk aversion to "the government", especially when that govt is right of centre, is not something I have much time for.


8496 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1795724 7-Jun-2017 08:43
Send private message

surfisup1000:

 

Fred99:

 

surfisup1000:

 

Heres a rather clever depiction of what is going on in the UK / Europe...

 

 

That's not clever at all.  It's stupid bigoted rubbish.  Shame.
Idiot memes aren't going to solve anything.  Seriously - get a life.

 

 

Putting on quite the show of hysterics aren't you?

 

The only problem with the cartoon in my view is that the sapling should have been portrayed as quite a bit taller.

 

Since you don't like cartoons, how about some words from one eminently more qualified than both you and I....

 

"Last month, the Wall Street Journal published an interview with France's director of domestic intelligence, Patrick Calvar. "The confrontation is inevitable," Mr. Calvar said. There are an estimated 15,000 Salafists among France's seven million Muslims, "whose radical-fundamentalist creed dominates many of the predominantly Muslim housing projects at the edges of cities such as Paris, Nice or Lyon. Their preachers call for a civil war, with all Muslims tasked to wipe out the miscreants down the street."

 

 

 

Shame on YOU for burying your head in the sand!  

 

 

So it's ok to insult 7 million - calling them all potential murderers -  for the assumed beliefs of 15,000?

 

That's about one on 500 muslims.

 

It's not hard to imagine that repeated stereotyping of "all muslims as the problem" for the actions of a few would result in hardening the position of those few, as well as alienating moderates.

 

This thread is an echo chamber for some hysterical screeching and fear-mongering - and completely lacking in suggestions on how to solve the problem.  Alienating the 499 out of 500 who could and should help put a stop to it is counterproductive - you'll get what you deserve - as we're already seeing.  Not terrorists from afar - but "home grown".  

 

The cartoon would be more accurate if it was showing hate and distrust being poured from the watering can.

 

Head in the sand - whatever. At least I'm not blind to the patently obvious.


gzt

10862 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1795732 7-Jun-2017 09:00
Send private message

surfisup1000: [Muslim percentage theory]

Except that many of those places do not have the problems your theory predicts. It's entirely bogus.

13092 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  # 1795757 7-Jun-2017 09:50
Send private message

Winston Churchill, 1899

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries, improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.





14037 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Subscriber

  # 1795759 7-Jun-2017 09:53
Send private message

frankv:

 

shk292:

 

Where we differ is that I think there is a limit to allowable freedom of speech, and that preaching the kind of things that ISIS and radical Islamists do, often in mosques in western countries (eg Abu Hamza) should be criminal acts in themselves.  I also think there is such a thing as a "criminal organisation" and that supporting such a thing should be illegal.

 

 

Each time there's another restriction on our lives to "combat terrorism", we lose and ISIS wins. And the government wins, because those restrictions make it easier for the government to control the populace.

 

Also, ISIS *needs* the UK-resident Muslims to see themselves as different; to think of other Britons as their enemies. They need Westerners to treat Muslims as enemies, not the friends that 99.999% of them are. They need Farage and the UKIP and the racists and haters So, the real way to fight ISIS is to be rational about this, look for the good in Muslims and make them our friends. Make love not war.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It takes but a few minutes to get through security and every time a plane gets from A to B there are many wins,  and those wins are repeated over and over again.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

Using empathy takes no energy and can gain so much. Try it.

 

 


4530 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  # 1795770 7-Jun-2017 10:01
Send private message

gzt:
surfisup1000: [Muslim percentage theory]

Except that many of those places do not have the problems your theory predicts. It's entirely bogus.


He was just quoting whaleoil. Just like a typical Trump supporter - they swallow everything that sounds good to them. There is no need for basis or fact.





1 | ... | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26
View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic



Twitter and LinkedIn »



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:





News »

Intel expands 10th Gen Intel Core Mobile processor family
Posted 23-Aug-2019 10:22


Digital innovation drives new investment provider
Posted 23-Aug-2019 08:29


Catalyst Cloud becomes a Kubernetes Certified Service Provider (KCSP)
Posted 23-Aug-2019 08:21


New AI legaltech product launched in New Zealand
Posted 21-Aug-2019 17:01


Yubico launches first Lightning-compatible security key, the YubiKey 5Ci
Posted 21-Aug-2019 16:46


Disney+ streaming service confirmed launch in New Zealand
Posted 20-Aug-2019 09:29


Industry plan could create a billion dollar interactive games sector
Posted 19-Aug-2019 20:41


Personal cyber insurance a New Zealand first
Posted 19-Aug-2019 20:26


University of Waikato launches space for esports
Posted 19-Aug-2019 20:20


D-Link ANZ expands mydlink ecosystem with new mydlink Mini Wi-Fi Smart Plug
Posted 19-Aug-2019 20:14


Kiwi workers still falling victim to old cyber tricks
Posted 12-Aug-2019 20:47


Lightning Lab GovTech launches 2019 programme
Posted 12-Aug-2019 20:41


Epson launches portable laser projector
Posted 12-Aug-2019 20:27


Huawei launches new distributed HarmonyOS
Posted 12-Aug-2019 20:20


Lenovo introduces single-socket servers for edge and data-intensive workloads
Posted 9-Aug-2019 21:26



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.


Support Geekzone »

Our community of supporters help make Geekzone possible. Click the button below to join them.

Support Geezone on PressPatron



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.