Brexit - Part 3? British elections 2017

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Awrrr
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#1797522 9-Jun-2017 23:25

networkn:

Corbyn has effectively "stolen" this election by promising free education just like Labour did those years ago. Without it, I wonder what his voting numbers look like.

As you would put it, what a load of crap! Corbyn didn't 'steal' anything (or is that your term for whatever result you disapprove of?). He won votes by announcing policies that appealed to people. Just as any other politician does. No-one held a gun to the heads of those who voted for him.

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networkn

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#1797523 9-Jun-2017 23:50

Rikkitic:

networkn:

Corbyn has effectively "stolen" this election by promising free education just like Labour did those years ago. Without it, I wonder what his voting numbers look like.

As you would put it, what a load of crap! Corbyn didn't 'steal' anything (or is that your term for whatever result you disapprove of?). He won votes by announcing policies that appealed to people. Just as any other politician does. No-one held a gun to the heads of those who voted for him.

Corbyn targeted a large group of typically short term thinking voters (Not a critism per se, it happens because of circumstance) and promised them the earth. Sounds like a stolen election to me.

Fred99

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#1797526 10-Jun-2017 00:12

networkn:

Corbyn targeted a large group of typically short term thinking voters (Not a critism per se, it happens because of circumstance) and promised them the earth. Sounds like a stolen election to me.

Actually in my opinion, the "short term thinkers" are of my generation. Most probably living in the past, probably white, "middle class".

Probably not many years left, statistically speaking.

networkn

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#1797527 10-Jun-2017 00:17

Crisis "averted", TM will form a Govt.

Fred99

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#1797529 10-Jun-2017 00:23

networkn:

Crisis "averted", TM will form a Govt.

A very weak government - much weaker that she hoped for and polls told her she would get.

Great news for the world.

Geektastic

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#1797530 10-Jun-2017 00:24

ScuL:

According to the author of Article 50 it can be paused, or even cancelled, if all parties agree to doing so

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37854483/article-50-author-lord-kerr-says-brexit-could-be-stopped

Re the trains, I have not lived in the UK when it was nationalised but I have lived in other countries with nationalised railway systems and the efficiency does not have to suffer as long as the appropriate budgets are applied. What needs to stop is the charging of extortionate prices for services that should almost be considered basic human rights.

How does this jeopardise Brexit?

1) David Davis has just announced that this result is a clear indication there is no longer a mandate for the departure from the single market / customs zone
2) Conservatives do not have the majority vote to push through their hard Brexit agenda
3) The only way the Conservatives can still govern would be with the DUP, which seems to be TM's preferred path forward. However DUP DO NOT want a hard border between ROI / NIE.
4) Because of 3), Hard Brexit is no longer an option which would heavily upset the Tory backbenchers.
5) The new Brexit approach creates rifts between the Pro Hard-Brexit Tories and the other powers that be in the newly formed government
6) Labour are going to pull their weight in the Brexit debates due to the election results
7) Brussels no longer have a clear vision of what sort of Brexit the UK really wants (the lines get blurry)
8) Certain things the Tories still insist to achieve in a "Brexit deal" cannot realistically be reached because of the new balance of power
9) All of the above throws up numerous amounts of obstacles, the clock of Article 50 is still ticking.

My personal expectation is that the tossing and turning will cause such amount of frustrations on multiple levels that within the next 2 years either

A) a new general election is called

or

B) the UK will be booted out of the EU and will be forced to default on WTO rules

Nationalised industries in Britain are grossly inefficient and never work as well as privatised ones. Rail was no cheaper then than now relatively speaking, either. The staff were frequently on strike causing misery to rail travellers as well. Thank the lord Mrs Thatcher came along and put an end to that nonsense.

As to Article 50:

"The UK Supreme Court said in its ruling on whether Parliament must vote on Britain’s Article 50 request to leave the EU that once the Article 50 trigger is pulled “it cannot be withdrawn.” That appears to mean that once Prime Minister Theresa May triggers Article 50 in March, the UK will leave the EU, no matter what happens, in 2019.

There is no way back, the Supreme Court said.

Read more at https://www.businessinsider.com/uk-supreme-court-article-50-notice-cannot-be-withdrawn-2017-1#YTsg48KfVxyWfbba.99"

Fred99

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#1797532 10-Jun-2017 00:35

Geektastic:

Nationalised industries in Britain are grossly inefficient and never work as well as privatised ones.

That's possibly true in terms of "Nigel" and a career working for British steel.

Probably not true in terms of the NHS, which was sort of OK, and if radical change was needed then look to perhaps France and the USA, then decide whether 1/2 as much at twice the cost as delivered by the US system is "efficient".

ScuL

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#1797533 10-Jun-2017 01:02

Geektastic:

As to Article 50:

"The UK Supreme Court said in its ruling on whether Parliament must vote on Britain’s Article 50 request to leave the EU that once the Article 50 trigger is pulled “it cannot be withdrawn.” That appears to mean that once Prime Minister Theresa May triggers Article 50 in March, the UK will leave the EU, no matter what happens, in 2019.

There is no way back, the Supreme Court said.

Read more at https://www.businessinsider.com/uk-supreme-court-article-50-notice-cannot-be-withdrawn-2017-1#YTsg48KfVxyWfbba.99"

That merely states that the notice given cannot be withdrawn. It does not mean that Brexit must be executed. That still depends on the opinion of the 27 others, and they can review their stance based on the events at the time the 2 year timer runs out. Also, if the UK were to change their stance by either postponing or cancelling, the notice still stands but it doesn't mean that it must be executed.

Nothing is certain until it's done.

Haere taka mua, taka muri; kaua e wha.

networkn

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#1797534 10-Jun-2017 01:05

Fred99:

networkn:

Crisis "averted", TM will form a Govt.

A very weak government - much weaker that she hoped for and polls told her she would get.

Great news for the world.

What was your preferred outcome?

networkn

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#1797535 10-Jun-2017 01:08

Fred99:

networkn:

Corbyn targeted a large group of typically short term thinking voters (Not a critism per se, it happens because of circumstance) and promised them the earth. Sounds like a stolen election to me.

Actually in my opinion, the "short term thinkers" are of my generation. Most probably living in the past, probably white, "middle class".

Probably not many years left, statistically speaking.

I am not sure what your generation is, however I am interested to see what sort of short term thinking you are referring to and how it's worse than that of your average hand to mouth student who in my experience is looking what will benefit them this week/month/year over what will be happening in the country 20-30 years from now? Students aren't the only ones thinking like this of course, and there are going to be exceptions in the student bodies.

Geektastic

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#1797537 10-Jun-2017 01:47

ScuL:

Geektastic:

As to Article 50:

"The UK Supreme Court said in its ruling on whether Parliament must vote on Britain’s Article 50 request to leave the EU that once the Article 50 trigger is pulled “it cannot be withdrawn.” That appears to mean that once Prime Minister Theresa May triggers Article 50 in March, the UK will leave the EU, no matter what happens, in 2019.

There is no way back, the Supreme Court said.

Read more at https://www.businessinsider.com/uk-supreme-court-article-50-notice-cannot-be-withdrawn-2017-1#YTsg48KfVxyWfbba.99"

That merely states that the notice given cannot be withdrawn. It does not mean that Brexit must be executed. That still depends on the opinion of the 27 others, and they can review their stance based on the events at the time the 2 year timer runs out. Also, if the UK were to change their stance by either postponing or cancelling, the notice still stands but it doesn't mean that it must be executed.

Nothing is certain until it's done.

Incorrect. The notice is procedural and begins a 2 year countdown, at the end of which the UK is out of the EU. The law is very clear on that. There is no more choice as to whether Britain leaves unless all the other member states agreed and Britain had another referendum and another parliamentary vote - and, according to the highest court in the UK, not even then.

All else being equal, Britain is out at the end of the 2 years, deal or no deal, unless all 27 agreed to extend that negotiating period. The Treaty itself reads

"3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period."

MikeB4

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#1797593 10-Jun-2017 08:18

Democracy is cool and risky but fair. You go to the poll and you accept the people's choice, sometimes depending on ones personal beliefs the outcome is not what one hoped for. It is what it is and that is how our system works.

Those who vote are the same and their choices deserve respect. The US made a choice, The UK has made choices as we will make a choice soon. No need to redicule those who make a choice differently to oneself.

Rikkitic

Awrrr
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#1797607 10-Jun-2017 09:23

networkn:

Corbyn targeted a large group of typically short term thinking voters (Not a critism per se, it happens because of circumstance) and promised them the earth. Sounds like a stolen election to me.

I still don't see how that equates to a 'stolen' election. Corbyn did what politicians do. It is up to the media and the voters themselves to assess whatever promises are made and to vote accordingly. You sound like a bad loser, even though May will carry on as PM, at least for a little while. You also sound like you think some categories of voters should not have a vote. No doubt you are one of those who knows what is best for everyone else, whether they like it or not.

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ScuL

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#1797610 10-Jun-2017 09:37

Geektastic:

Incorrect. The notice is procedural and begins a 2 year countdown, at the end of which the UK is out of the EU. The law is very clear on that. There is no more choice as to whether Britain leaves unless all the other member states agreed and Britain had another referendum and another parliamentary vote - and, according to the highest court in the UK, not even then.

All else being equal, Britain is out at the end of the 2 years, deal or no deal, unless all 27 agreed to extend that negotiating period. The Treaty itself reads

"3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period."

You're saying two completely contradicting things in the same post.

A) There is no more choice
B) There is choice unless all 27 agreed or there is another referendum / vote

The reality is that nobody has done this before and I am convinced there are still many more hurdles to come

May hasn't done anything to make the entire process any easier

Haere taka mua, taka muri; kaua e wha.

Batman

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#1797613 10-Jun-2017 09:55

MikeB4: Democracy is cool and risky but fair. You go to the poll and you accept the people's choice, sometimes depending on ones personal beliefs the outcome is not what one hoped for. It is what it is and that is how our system works.

Those who vote are the same and their choices deserve respect. The US made a choice, The UK has made choices as we will make a choice soon. No need to redicule those who make a choice differently to oneself.

Unfortunately democracy comes at a price of fake news.

It's been happening for a long time, in countries where there is no freedom of press - the govt controls their propaganda to make sure they always get voted.

Unfortunately, now in a country with freedom of press, people believe fake news, voting for a pathological liar.

Democracy - It doesn't always work!

In Britain when there is no mandate to govern, nothing happens is my prediction. That's no good for them, I don't think.

Let's hope New Zealand elections work ...

Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.

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