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gzt

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  # 1828445 24-Jul-2017 14:30
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There were some earlier advocating a reduction in representative democracy and abolsishing the maori seats and a return to first past the post um because winners.

That proposal would vastly reduce the effectiveness of our democracy. If I was on the maori roll this would be the best argument to me to keep the existing seats until such a time as I'm happy with a change in that area.

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  # 1828450 24-Jul-2017 14:45
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MikeB4: The Treaty of Waitangi is not some historical relic it is an active agreement/ document just like the US Constitution and the Magna Carta.

 

It's a bit of a stretch to compare the Treaty to the US constitution or the Magna Carta.

 

The treaty's sole purpose was to establish a form of government and to obtain protection of the British Crown.

 

(Note: Ngapuhi chiefs pleaded for years with the British for a treaty to establish law&order and protect them from both the impending arrival of the French, and inter-tribal warfare.  It most certainly was not a case of the British being "the Imperial forces that imposed themselves on this land and the people already here.")

 

The treaty's sole purpose was to set forth the terms of that.  (this is only a very slight simplification of it)

 

1. Maori cede sovereignty/governance of NZ to the Crown forever.

 

2. Maori get to keep their lands, villages and all their property.  If they wished to sell their land, they may only sell it to the Crown at a mutually agreed price.

 

3. In return, Maori receive the same privileges (and protection) at the British settlers

 

That's all.  It doesn't stipulate in any way how the Government was to be established, or operated.  It conveyed no specific rights to any particular race and no specific obligation on the Crown to treat anyone as "special".

 

...as I said prevoiusly, both parties to the Treaty have fallen short of their obligations over the years, and the settlement process is rightfully making amends for historic misdeeds - but to hold the Treaty up as comparable to the US Constitution or Magna Carta is nonsensical.  The documents serve entirely different purposes.


 
 
 
 


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  # 1828452 24-Jul-2017 14:46
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MikeAqua:

 

Basically Maori as a people were asset stripped.  That disruption in their way of life (home, food, natural resources, community structure) led to many/all of the socio-economic challenges that Maori face today.

 

 

And the Moriori people were not stripped of anything? Its ridiculous that the genocide of the Moriori is just swept to the side, and forgotten. There is no question about it, the Moriori people had it far worse.

 

If 21st century Europeans have to repay today for the sins of their forefathers, surely its only right we should expect the same from Maori?

 

MikeB4:

The Treaty of Waitangi is not some historical relic it is an active agreement/ document just like the US Constitution and the Magna Carta.

 

I get that. But treaty aside, morally is it right we just ignore the genocide of the Moriori people?

 

 


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  # 1828456 24-Jul-2017 14:52
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By the agreement with the crown, Maori and the Crown set out the style of government. The British Government has its roots in the Magna Carta and thus so does ours.
The Treaty of Waitangi is not a sale and purchase agreement and does not have an expiry date. I was using the US Constitution as an example of a document of similar nature that the US does not ignore. Why should we ignore the treaty?




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  # 1828460 24-Jul-2017 14:53
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Wiggum:

MikeAqua:


Basically Maori as a people were asset stripped.  That disruption in their way of life (home, food, natural resources, community structure) led to many/all of the socio-economic challenges that Maori face today.



And the Moriori people were not stripped of anything? Its ridiculous that the genocide of the Moriori is just swept to the side, and forgotten. There is no question about it, the Moriori people had it far worse.


If 21st century Europeans have to repay today for the sins of their forefathers, surely its only right we should expect the same from Maori?


MikeB4:

The Treaty of Waitangi is not some historical relic it is an active agreement/ document just like the US Constitution and the Magna Carta.


I get that. But treaty aside, morally is it right we just ignore the genocide of the Moriori people?


 



Show me your evidence ?




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  # 1828464 24-Jul-2017 14:57
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MikeB4:
Show me your evidence ?

 

Evidence of what?


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  # 1828467 24-Jul-2017 14:58
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Oh an Moriori are Indigenous to the Chatham Islands not mainland NZ




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  # 1828468 24-Jul-2017 14:59
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Wiggum:

MikeB4:
Show me your evidence ?


Evidence of what?



You made claims ...... back them




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  # 1828473 24-Jul-2017 15:03
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MikeB4: Oh an Moriori are Indigenous to the Chatham Islands not mainland NZ

 

So the Chatham Islands are not NZ? I always find it strange how some never condone the slaughter of the Moriori. They try to make excuses like yours (Not mainland NZ), so suddenly its excusable. Please.

 

If we want to talk about how Maori have been disadvantaged by Pakeha, we should talk too about the Moriori people.

 

 

 

 


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  # 1828481 24-Jul-2017 15:10
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Wiggum:

 

MikeAqua:

 

Basically Maori as a people were asset stripped.  That disruption in their way of life (home, food, natural resources, community structure) led to many/all of the socio-economic challenges that Maori face today.

 

 

And the Moriori people were not stripped of anything? Its ridiculous that the genocide of the Moriori is just swept to the side, and forgotten. There is no question about it, the Moriori people had it far worse.

 

 

 

 

Protections as British subjects (should have) extended to Maori when they signed the treaty - they weren't retrospective and prior inter-iwi conflicts were not revisited as far as I know.

 

The invasion of the Chathams and subsequent atrocities occurred in 1835.  I'm not sure they were even 'illegal' at the time.

 

 





Mike

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  # 1828483 24-Jul-2017 15:12
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He's just trolling again. If the 900 or so people who claim Moriori descent want to take the Taranaki Maori to the Human Rights Court, it is their business. In any case, it certainly isn't his.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 1828484 24-Jul-2017 15:12
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MikeB4:
Wiggum:

 

MikeB4:
Show me your evidence ?

 

Evidence of what?

 



You made claims ...... back them

 

You want me to back up my claims about the Invasion of Taranaki Maori? Why? Its very well known.

 

Its all on Wikipedia

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moriori

 

I was going to quote the relevant section, but I feel its too gruesome and I would rather keep it off geekzone.

 

 

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  # 1828488 24-Jul-2017 15:20
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The Chatham plus other Islands in the forties were not part of NZ at the time of the Treaty negotiations and signing.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


Lock him up!
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  # 1828494 24-Jul-2017 15:23
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Ah, Wikipedia, that well-known repository of unbiased, rigorous, evidence-backed research. 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 1828499 24-Jul-2017 15:31
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I'm amazed actually. Not one of you shows any remorse for this tragedy. Instead the excuses fly. Disgusting to say the least.

 

 

 

 


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