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  # 1828712 24-Jul-2017 21:46
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frankv:

 

Can you please give me an example of how 51% of votes can result in less than 50% of seats.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wil try. 

 

Nats get 61 seats of 120, they govern.

 

But Maori Party or any smaller party runs 5 seats, and wins 5 seats. But the Party Vote % gives them 2 seats. They keep the 5 seats, but now has 3 more seats than MMP allows, so there are three new seats, virtual if you like. Parliament is now 123 seats, Nats have 61, under 50% 

 

Its quite common, but in our makeup of the Red and Blue it doesnt or hasn't yet affected anything. 

 

It makes sense when you focus on getting the small party man into the seat to make a difference, but the voter covers themselves by giving the Party Vote to Nats or Labour. The small party outperforms the Party Vote, but we dont gross down the seats won on election night to the Party Vote %. 


gzt

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  # 1828732 24-Jul-2017 22:00
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Wiggum: And the Moriori people were not stripped of anything? Its ridiculous that the genocide of the Moriori is just swept to the side, and forgotten. There is no question about it, the Moriori people had it far worse.


If 21st century Europeans have to repay today for the sins of their forefathers, surely its only right we should expect the same from Maori?


MikeB4:

The Treaty of Waitangi is not some historical relic it is an active agreement/ document just like the US Constitution and the Magna Carta.


I get that. But treaty aside, morally is it right we just ignore the genocide of the Moriori people?


It is not ignored. The events have not been forgotten. There is much you could learn:

TVNZ: Moriori descendants are close to negotiating a Treaty settlement with the Crown, based on breaches including a failure to stop slavery.

Further grievances include when 120 Moriori left the Chatham Islands in 1870 and were granted just three per cent of the land. Moriori did petition the government to restore land rights 150 years ago, but were unsuccessful. "We're looking forward to getting a just and fair settlement," Mr Solomon said.

Despite the Chatham Islands invasion pre-dating the Treaty of Waitangi, the Government concedes the Crown had a responsibility to act sooner.


 
 
 
 


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  # 1828777 25-Jul-2017 07:34
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Wiggum:

 

The document I shared was what I found was helpful to understand how it all works. It was not meant to be proof of the statement I made previously. If you want proof, you don't need a document, or any study to confirm it. Do the math

 

Lets say National gets 50.83% of votes, that's 61 out of 120 seats in the house.

 

Now add 5 seats (MMP overhang).

 

National still has 61 seats, but 61 out of 125 = 48.8%.

 

 

Thanks... I'd misunderstood how the overhang thing worked, and thought that list seats were allocated to maintain seats% ~= party vote%.

 

I just did some playing with the MMP seat allocation calculator, and it does work exactly as you say: 51%, 2%, 47% Party vote and 30, 7, 23 electorate seats to National, Maori, Labour respectively *does* leave National with only 48% of MPs.

 

However, this depends entirely on there being no other parties with under 5% Party vote. Add in a couple of those for a total 6% (Labour now has 41%) and National gets 53% of the MPs. If 48% seats from 51% party vote is undemocratic, then so is 53%. And with a large number of small parties, it seems to me that we will almost always have some underhang. So, in 2014 there was an overhang of just 1, and National with 47% of the vote got 60/121 seats.

 

It's ironic that Peter Dunne is wittering on about the Maori seats and overhang, since his quasi-independent National-in-all-but-name party is equally a cause of overhang.

 

 


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  # 1828781 25-Jul-2017 07:51
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For those who still think we are all equal in this country and there is no need for special treatment of minorities, here is a recent experience of some people. Granted, it is anecdotal, one-off, proof of nothing and all that, but I think it still has illustrative value.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 1828785 25-Jul-2017 07:58
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Rikkitic:

For those who still think we are all equal in this country and there is no need for special treatment of minorities, here is a recent experience of some people. Granted, it is anecdotal, one-off, proof of nothing and all that, but I think it still has illustrative value.


 



We have experienced this with our Granddaughter, it is still too upsetting to talk about.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  # 1828795 25-Jul-2017 08:17
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The point of experiences like this is that racial groups are not all treated the same in this country, and until they are, those who call for 'equal' treatment in politics and otherwise are just spouting spurious deceptive BS.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 1829315 25-Jul-2017 19:47
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MikeB4:
Rikkitic:

 

For those who still think we are all equal in this country and there is no need for special treatment of minorities, here is a recent experience of some people. Granted, it is anecdotal, one-off, proof of nothing and all that, but I think it still has illustrative value.

 

 

 

 

 



We have experienced this with our Granddaughter, it is still too upsetting to talk about.

 

Yup I remember walking into Te Papa, the local guard yelled at us to get out because it's not open. But about 10 sec later, a pair of Pakeha males walked past him and he didn't say a word. So I tried to follow them, same result.





Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


 
 
 
 


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  # 1831614 26-Jul-2017 13:53
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gzt:
TVNZ: Moriori descendants are close to negotiating a Treaty settlement with the Crown, based on breaches including a failure to stop slavery.

Further grievances include when 120 Moriori left the Chatham Islands in 1870 and were granted just three per cent of the land. Moriori did petition the government to restore land rights 150 years ago, but were unsuccessful. "We're looking forward to getting a just and fair settlement," Mr Solomon said.

Despite the Chatham Islands invasion pre-dating the Treaty of Waitangi, the Government concedes the Crown had a responsibility to act sooner.

 

After 1840 Moriori have case for any abuse they endured on the NZ mainland (e.g. as 'slave' of Ngati Tama).  After the islands were annexed they have ca case for any abuse endured on the Chathams and Auckland Islands. 

 

There still isn't a case for the crown to revisit what happened in 1835, because it predates British protection. 

 

At the time of the invasion of the Chathams, NZ was effectively a mosaic of iwi-states, with no higher authority (like a paramount chief) to regulate disputes between iwi.  Analogous I guess to the Saxon Heptarchy in Britain.

 

The atrocities that were perpetrated against Moriori were (unfortunately) consistent with what Maori (at times) did to each other.





Mike



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  # 1831617 26-Jul-2017 13:55
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MikeAqua:

 

gzt:
TVNZ: Moriori descendants are close to negotiating a Treaty settlement with the Crown, based on breaches including a failure to stop slavery.

Further grievances include when 120 Moriori left the Chatham Islands in 1870 and were granted just three per cent of the land. Moriori did petition the government to restore land rights 150 years ago, but were unsuccessful. "We're looking forward to getting a just and fair settlement," Mr Solomon said.

Despite the Chatham Islands invasion pre-dating the Treaty of Waitangi, the Government concedes the Crown had a responsibility to act sooner.

 

After 1840 Moriori have case for any abuse they endured on the NZ mainland (e.g. as 'slave' of Ngati Tama).  After the islands were annexed they have ca case for any abuse endured on the Chathams and Auckland Islands. 

 

There still isn't a case for the crown to revisit what happened in 1835, because it predates British protection. 

 

At the time of the invasion of the Chathams, NZ was effectively a mosaic of iwi-states, with no higher authority (like a paramount chief) to regulate disputes between iwi.  Analogous I guess to the Saxon Heptarchy in Britain.

 

The atrocities that were perpetrated against Moriori were (unfortunately) consistent with what Maori (at times) did to each other.

 

 

 

 

Don't forget the poor Moa!!


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  # 1831625 26-Jul-2017 14:11
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Pumpedd:

 

Don't forget the poor Moa!!

 

 

I hope you're not going to blame the Maori for that. Everywhere humans of any race have appeared, species have gone extinct. The poor dodo is only one other example. If a creature is too trusting, and too good to eat, its days are numbered.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 1831626 26-Jul-2017 14:14
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TVNZ: Moriori descendants are close to negotiating a Treaty settlement with the Crown, based on breaches including a failure to stop slavery.

Further grievances include when 120 Moriori left the Chatham Islands in 1870 and were granted just three per cent of the land. Moriori did petition the government to restore land rights 150 years ago, but were unsuccessful. "We're looking forward to getting a just and fair settlement," Mr Solomon said.

Despite the Chatham Islands invasion pre-dating the Treaty of Waitangi, the Government concedes the Crown had a responsibility to act sooner.


 

I'm confused at how Moriori descendants can lodge claims against the crown. Surely any claims should be towards Maori. Moriori had nothing to do with the treaty, and this claim actually just proves to me that the Gravy train still has a very long way to go.

 

This is really ridiculous, a claim against the Cown for failure to stop slavery. At first I thought this may be an April fools joke.

 

Moriori lost 90 per cent of their population due to Maori. And there is no claim against them for that? Now the Crown needs to pick up the pieces.

 

 

 

The islands were invaded by Taranaki Maori in 1835, who slaughtered and enslaved the Moriori. The atrocities continued for 20 years.

 

 

 

"We lost 90 per cent of our population - that's a holocaust really," Mr Solomon said.

 

I'm actually shocked. Hopefully this claim goes nowhere very fast.

 


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  # 1831627 26-Jul-2017 14:18
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Rikkitic:

 

Pumpedd:

 

Don't forget the poor Moa!!

 

 

I hope you're not going to blame the Maori for that. Everywhere humans of any race have appeared, species have gone extinct. The poor dodo is only one other example. If a creature is too trusting, and too good to eat, its days are numbered.

 

 

 

 

I read somewhere that 99% of all species that has lived on earth are extinct. Mindboggling.


eph

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  # 1831643 26-Jul-2017 14:38
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Wiggum:

 

TVNZ: Moriori descendants are close to negotiating a Treaty settlement with the Crown, based on breaches including a failure to stop slavery.

Further grievances include when 120 Moriori left the Chatham Islands in 1870 and were granted just three per cent of the land. Moriori did petition the government to restore land rights 150 years ago, but were unsuccessful. "We're looking forward to getting a just and fair settlement," Mr Solomon said.

Despite the Chatham Islands invasion pre-dating the Treaty of Waitangi, the Government concedes the Crown had a responsibility to act sooner.


 

I'm confused at how Moriori descendants can lodge claims against the crown. Surely any claims should be towards Maori. Moriori had nothing to do with the treaty, and this claim actually just proves to me that the Gravy train still has a very long way to go.

 

This is really ridiculous, a claim against the Cown for failure to stop slavery. At first I thought this may be an April fools joke.

 

 

Might it be because the slavery continued till 1863? I assume slavery was not legal in the Empire then so Crown was I guess supposed to act after they've annexed the Islands.

 

 


gzt

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  # 1831649 26-Jul-2017 14:43
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Wiggum:

TVNZ: Moriori descendants are close to negotiating a Treaty settlement with the Crown, based on breaches including a failure to stop slavery.

Further grievances include when 120 Moriori left the Chatham Islands in 1870 and were granted just three per cent of the land. Moriori did petition the government to restore land rights 150 years ago, but were unsuccessful. "We're looking forward to getting a just and fair settlement," Mr Solomon said.

Despite the Chatham Islands invasion pre-dating the Treaty of Waitangi, the Government concedes the Crown had a responsibility to act sooner.



I'm confused at how Moriori descendants can lodge claims against the crown. Surely any claims should be towards Maori. Moriori had nothing to do with the treaty, and this claim actually just proves to me that the Gravy train still has a very long way to go.


This is really ridiculous, a claim against the Cown for failure to stop slavery. At first I thought this may be an April fools joke.


Moriori lost 90 per cent of their population due to Maori. And there is no claim against them for that? Now the Crown needs to pick up the pieces.




The islands were invaded by Taranaki Maori in 1835, who slaughtered and enslaved the Moriori. The atrocities continued for 20 years.




"We lost 90 per cent of our population - that's a holocaust really," Mr Solomon said.


I'm actually shocked. Hopefully this claim goes nowhere very fast.



I doubt you have read the claim or understand the issues.

Some fairly hard-nosed people have been elected to government over the years. Its not a long bow to draw that some started with attitudes similar to your own.

Yet these people examined the evidence and concluded there was a case to answer and proceeded towards recognition and settlement. It is you who ignores history.

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  # 1831688 26-Jul-2017 15:35
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I hope this thread isn't going to go the same way the other one did. Debate, even vigorous and impassioned debate, is one thing, but continuing to hammer again and again at a point that has already been comprehensively made, is something else. 

 

 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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