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3026 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 1832190 27-Jul-2017 13:07
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MikeAqua:

 

tdgeek:

 

When this overhang topic popped up, I googled a bit. There has been a vote or votes on it, 2/3 are happy as it is

 

So it doesnt matter

 

UNTIL it affects a major party, then it will be all you hear about. And look at now. Winston would go to Labour/Greens. Maori party probably would as they act only for themselves. ACT will work with anyone he said just two days ago. Anything could happen and it probably will. The only downside is the OT topic on it here if and when it happens!   

 

 

A small party is most likely to get more seats than they are entitled to.

 

 

Yeah. Except that there are many votes for below-threshold parties. So any party that is present in Parliament actually gets *more* seats than they are entitled to (if you assume that %age of the popular vote is the correct entitlement). If, OTOH, you accept that we've all agreed that the MMP formulae are right, then every party gets exactly the number of seats they're entitled to.

 

And of course ACT & Winston will "work with anyone". Because it's good PR to be seen as willing to work with anyone (i.e. moderate). And, no matter what happens, it makes you available for Government, which is the Holy Grail for a minor party, and potentially a Ministerial position for David or Winston if their votes are needed desperately enough. In reality, they're philosophically to the right of National, and never going to be a working part of a left-led coalition. It's like me declaring my availability for All Black selection.

 

 


5390 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1832317 27-Jul-2017 15:12
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frankv:

 

 

 

Yeah. Except that there are many votes for below-threshold parties. So any party that is present in Parliament actually gets *more* seats than they are entitled to (if you assume that %age of the popular vote is the correct entitlement). If, OTOH, you accept that we've all agreed that the MMP formulae are right, then every party gets exactly the number of seats they're entitled to.

 

 

 

 

That's true, but it would be a mess accommodating all the rats and mice.  I see what you are saying though.  If you have to rule lines at the bottom, then you have to rule them at top as well.

 

On balance I agree the system works OK.  I suspect most people weren't aware of the mathematical realities when they voted for it though.

 

But it's been a stable form of govt in NZ.  We've had few minor wobbles but no major constitutional dramas.  I suspect the GG's ability to kick the whole lot out if parliament becomes dysfunctional has contributed to that.





Mike

 
 
 
 


eph

179 posts

Master Geek


  # 1872837 26-Sep-2017 07:31
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Looks like the Maori seats are top topic this morning. With Winston (and looks like the majority of people) wanting them gone and no Maori party to fight for them, it seems their days might be numbered. Jacinda is fighting against the referendum but I wonder if she would say the same if they didn't hold all of the Maori seats.


982 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  # 1872843 26-Sep-2017 07:45
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Maori seats should be gone. As much as I hate to say it winston is right.

 

No other countries have this nonsense.

 

We don't make white people only seats, or asian seats, just because they were supposedly here first/second/third etc. We are never going to abolish racisim or become one nation with exceptional rules for a selected few.


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Uber Geek

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  # 1872850 26-Sep-2017 07:59
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darylblake:

Maori seats should be gone. As much as I hate to say it winston is right.


No other countries have this nonsense.


We don't make white people only seats, or asian seats, just because they were supposedly here first/second/third etc. We are never going to abolish racisim or become one nation with exceptional rules for a selected few.



Not supposedly first.......Maori were first and UN recognised as the indigenous people’s. Race relations will never improve until that is universally accepted here and that indicates the Maori seats are still required.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


1199 posts

Uber Geek
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  # 1872856 26-Sep-2017 08:42
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MikeB4:
darylblake:

 

Maori seats should be gone. As much as I hate to say it winston is right.

 

 

 

No other countries have this nonsense.

 

 

 

We don't make white people only seats, or asian seats, just because they were supposedly here first/second/third etc. We are never going to abolish racisim or become one nation with exceptional rules for a selected few.

 



Not supposedly first.......Maori were first and UN recognised as the indigenous people’s. Race relations will never improve until that is universally accepted here and that indicates the Maori seats are still required.

 

Democracy and rights for second and first don't work together. Seats need to go.


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Uber Geek

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  # 1872857 26-Sep-2017 08:48
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Wiggum:

MikeB4:
darylblake:


Maori seats should be gone. As much as I hate to say it winston is right.


 


No other countries have this nonsense.


 


We don't make white people only seats, or asian seats, just because they were supposedly here first/second/third etc. We are never going to abolish racisim or become one nation with exceptional rules for a selected few.




Not supposedly first.......Maori were first and UN recognised as the indigenous people’s. Race relations will never improve until that is universally accepted here and that indicates the Maori seats are still required.


Democracy and rights for second and first don't work together. Seats need to go.



That maybe so it that is for Maori to decide. If they no longer feel disenfranchised they will vote go, if they no longer feel disadvantaged they will vote go, if they feel the Treaty is being honoured they will vote go, if they feel to be equals they will vote go. If not and they vote for the seats to remain then so be it.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


 
 
 
 


eph

179 posts

Master Geek


  # 1872862 26-Sep-2017 08:59
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MikeB4:

 


That maybe so it that is for Maori to decide. If they no longer feel disenfranchised they will vote go, if they no longer feel disadvantaged they will vote go, if they feel the Treaty is being honoured they will vote go, if they feel to be equals they will vote go. If not and they vote for the seats to remain then so be it.

 

 

 

I don't think the referendum would be for Maoris only. Those seat might be "theirs" but they affect the whole society.


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Uber Geek

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  # 1872872 26-Sep-2017 09:26
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Instead of a referendum a multi party multi disciplin commission be set up to work with Maori and the wider community to ensure all issues have been resolved. When this is completed the commission reports to the Crown with its recommendations. This would be better than yet another decision forced on Maori. If this is forced is it worth the risk of racial disharmony and unrest that ee have not seen here for many years. Is it worth tearing a rift right through our communities.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


8942 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1872879 26-Sep-2017 09:36
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eph:

 

MikeB4:

 


That maybe so it that is for Maori to decide. If they no longer feel disenfranchised they will vote go, if they no longer feel disadvantaged they will vote go, if they feel the Treaty is being honoured they will vote go, if they feel to be equals they will vote go. If not and they vote for the seats to remain then so be it.

 

 

 

I don't think the referendum would be for Maoris only. Those seat might be "theirs" but they affect the whole society.

 

 

Under MMP, they actually don't have much affect at all. They do not "give Maori extra political power" because we have proportionality.

 

While that actually might be a good reason to get rid of them, it's also reason to not bother with getting rid of them - because the likely division it would cause far outweighs any possible "harm" from keeping them.

 

There's no need for a "Maori referendum". De-facto, that's what we already have as Maori have the choice whether to be in a maori or general electorate.

 

Much ado about nothing - except potential fuel for bigots, that we as a nation don't need.


774 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1872922 26-Sep-2017 10:03
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MikeB4:

That maybe so it that is for Maori to decide. If they no longer feel disenfranchised they will vote go, if they no longer feel disadvantaged they will vote go, if they feel the Treaty is being honoured they will vote go, if they feel to be equals they will vote go. If not and they vote for the seats to remain then so be it.

 

 

 

@MikeB4 this is the text of Treaty that was read to Maori.  This is the document that they signed.

 

Ko nga Rangatira o te Wakaminenga, me nga Rangatira katoa hoki kihai I uru ki taua Wakaminenga ka tuku rawa atu ki te Kuini o Ingarani ake tonu atu, te Kawanatanga katoa o ratou wenua.

 

Translation:

 

Here’s the chiefs of the General Assembly, and all the chiefs who have not joined the Assembly mentioned, cede to the utmost, to the Queen of England forever continually to the utmost, the entire Governorship of their lands

 

How do you reconcile Article 1 of Te Tiriti o Waitangi with your argument that "it's up to Maori to decide"?

 

(Genuine question!)

 

 


eph

179 posts

Master Geek


  # 1872927 26-Sep-2017 10:11
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Fred99:

 

eph:

 

MikeB4:

 


That maybe so it that is for Maori to decide. If they no longer feel disenfranchised they will vote go, if they no longer feel disadvantaged they will vote go, if they feel the Treaty is being honoured they will vote go, if they feel to be equals they will vote go. If not and they vote for the seats to remain then so be it.

 

 

 

I don't think the referendum would be for Maoris only. Those seat might be "theirs" but they affect the whole society.

 

 

Under MMP, they actually don't have much affect at all. They do not "give Maori extra political power" because we have proportionality.

 

While that actually might be a good reason to get rid of them, it's also reason to not bother with getting rid of them - because the likely division it would cause far outweighs any possible "harm" from keeping them.

 

There's no need for a "Maori referendum". De-facto, that's what we already have as Maori have the choice whether to be in a maori or general electorate.

 

Much ado about nothing - except potential fuel for bigots, that we as a nation don't need.

 

 

Well, I agree with no extra political power since they voted Labour to have those. But if the Maori electorates were abolished and all these Maoris would vote in general electorates would Labour still get the same number of seats (proportionally) or would they get less? I honestly don't know that but if they would get less then I'd say the seats are still significant.


8942 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1872929 26-Sep-2017 10:12
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You don't need to reconcile anything.

 

The Maori seats don't prevent the government from governing by giving "the chiefs" power over the crown.

 

I'm out of this thread - I can see where it's going.


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Uber Geek

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  # 1872930 26-Sep-2017 10:13
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6FIEND:

 

MikeB4:

That maybe so it that is for Maori to decide. If they no longer feel disenfranchised they will vote go, if they no longer feel disadvantaged they will vote go, if they feel the Treaty is being honoured they will vote go, if they feel to be equals they will vote go. If not and they vote for the seats to remain then so be it.

 

 

 

@MikeB4 this is the text of Treaty that was read to Maori.  This is the document that they signed.

 

Ko nga Rangatira o te Wakaminenga, me nga Rangatira katoa hoki kihai I uru ki taua Wakaminenga ka tuku rawa atu ki te Kuini o Ingarani ake tonu atu, te Kawanatanga katoa o ratou wenua.

 

Translation:

 

Here’s the chiefs of the General Assembly, and all the chiefs who have not joined the Assembly mentioned, cede to the utmost, to the Queen of England forever continually to the utmost, the entire Governorship of their lands

 

How do you reconcile Article 1 of Te Tiriti o Waitangi with your argument that "it's up to Maori to decide"?

 

(Genuine question!)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hence my suggestion here....

 

"Instead of a referendum a multi party multi discipline commission be set up to work with Maori and the wider community to ensure all issues have been resolved. When this is completed the commission reports to the Crown with its recommendations. This would be better than yet another decision forced on Maori. If this is forced is it worth the risk of racial disharmony and unrest that we have not seen here for many years. Is it worth tearing a rift right through our communities."

 

A referendum on the seats is unfair no matter which way it is held, hence a commission that reports to the Crown after consultations and submissions is the most inline with the treaty.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


8942 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1872934 26-Sep-2017 10:18
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eph:

 

Fred99:

 

eph:

 

MikeB4:

 


That maybe so it that is for Maori to decide. If they no longer feel disenfranchised they will vote go, if they no longer feel disadvantaged they will vote go, if they feel the Treaty is being honoured they will vote go, if they feel to be equals they will vote go. If not and they vote for the seats to remain then so be it.

 

 

 

I don't think the referendum would be for Maoris only. Those seat might be "theirs" but they affect the whole society.

 

 

Under MMP, they actually don't have much affect at all. They do not "give Maori extra political power" because we have proportionality.

 

While that actually might be a good reason to get rid of them, it's also reason to not bother with getting rid of them - because the likely division it would cause far outweighs any possible "harm" from keeping them.

 

There's no need for a "Maori referendum". De-facto, that's what we already have as Maori have the choice whether to be in a maori or general electorate.

 

Much ado about nothing - except potential fuel for bigots, that we as a nation don't need.

 

 

Well, I agree with no extra political power since they voted Labour to have those. But if the Maori electorates were abolished and all these Maoris would vote in general electorates would Labour still get the same number of seats (proportionally) or would they get less? I honestly don't know that but if they would get less then I'd say the seats are still significant.

 

 

They'd (Labour) probably get more, as parties claiming to represent primarily Maori would wane, and those votes would go to Labour.

 

It's inconceivable that both National and Labour don't fully understand that.  Their actions - and in particular National under Brash - and possibly again under English if he forms government with Peters and concedes on that, show that they will use it as a political football. It's a debate the country doesn't need.


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