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Rikkitic
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  #1825795 20-Jul-2017 11:54
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Wiggum: 

 

The Maori roll in 2017 is made up of just 238,866 people. Therefore a very small amount on Maori roll, yet 7 seats in parliament.

 

 

I don't care about the Maori roll. Maybe you do. Maybe Winston does. Maybe others do. But I sure don't. 

 

 





Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

 


 


6FIEND
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  #1825842 20-Jul-2017 12:50
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Rikkitic:

 

Why all the resentment of Maori privilege? It isn't hurting you in any meaningful way and as frankv tried to point out, most Maori aren't exactly living the high life. What is your actual problem with this? Just a point of principle? Surely there are bigger issues to worry about in this country.

 

 

My personal opinion on "What is my actual problem with this?" is as follows:  (and I appreciate that people will have differing opinions)

 

A point of principle? - Yes.  I believe that it is thoroughly unprincipled to single out a particular demographic (be it gender, sexuality, race, whatever.) and treat them differently to the rest of humanity ...but more importantly:

 

A point of practice.

 

Simply put - all the "Maori privilege" in its various guises hasn't worked.   For all the "positive discrimination" currently afforded to Maori, the outcome remains extremely poor - if not worsening, with new records for undesirable metrics being set with depressing regularity.

 

EducationHealthWelfareViolence. Suicide.  It hasn't worked.

 

What is has driven is an increase in negative behaviours.  Separatism, an "us vs. them" mentality, a victim mentality, intergenerational dependency on welfare and an entrenched belief that Maori couldn't possibly function in the modern world without special dispensations.   It has lead to such a level of mass cognitive dissonance that it is perceived as "good" to reserve Medical School places for Maori because it's important that Maori can access ethnically aligned and culturally sensitive medical care, but at the same time, a "white" woman is vilified for asking to see a "white" doctor for her daughter.  (admittedly, that was a Canadian incident)

 

All of that "privilege" comes at significant cost.  Both financial, societal, and opportunity cost.  And to put your question back to you...

 

"Surely there are bigger issues to worry about in this country"

 

 

 

 


Rikkitic
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  #1825861 20-Jul-2017 13:09
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6FIEND:

 

Rikkitic:

 

Why all the resentment of Maori privilege? It isn't hurting you in any meaningful way and as frankv tried to point out, most Maori aren't exactly living the high life. What is your actual problem with this? Just a point of principle? Surely there are bigger issues to worry about in this country.

 

 

My personal opinion on "What is my actual problem with this?" is as follows:  (and I appreciate that people will have differing opinions)

 

A point of principle? - Yes.  I believe that it is thoroughly unprincipled to single out a particular demographic (be it gender, sexuality, race, whatever.) and treat them differently to the rest of humanity ...but more importantly:

 

A point of practice.

 

Simply put - all the "Maori privilege" in its various guises hasn't worked.   For all the "positive discrimination" currently afforded to Maori, the outcome remains extremely poor - if not worsening, with new records for undesirable metrics being set with depressing regularity.

 

EducationHealthWelfareViolence. Suicide.  It hasn't worked.

 

What is has driven is an increase in negative behaviours.  Separatism, an "us vs. them" mentality, a victim mentality, intergenerational dependency on welfare and an entrenched belief that Maori couldn't possibly function in the modern world without special dispensations.   It has lead to such a level of mass cognitive dissonance that it is perceived as "good" to reserve Medical School places for Maori because it's important that Maori can access ethnically aligned and culturally sensitive medical care, but at the same time, a "white" woman is vilified for asking to see a "white" doctor for her daughter.  (admittedly, that was a Canadian incident)

 

All of that "privilege" comes at significant cost.  Both financial, societal, and opportunity cost.  And to put your question back to you...

 

"Surely there are bigger issues to worry about in this country"

 

 

Good reply. Congratulations. But the question remains, what can (or should) be done? Using 'equal treatment for all' as an excuse to accept an unequal staus quo isn't an answer either.

 

 





Plesse igmore amd axxept applogies in adbance fir anu typos

 


 




MikeB4
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  #1825867 20-Jul-2017 13:21
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At some time Maori will need to decide if the 7 Maori seats are needed and a vote can be taken. This issue is however clouding  New Zealand  has with serious social issues facing Maori such as inadequate housing, poverty, suicide etc. I know these are not just restricted to Maori but they are very over represented in these issues. I don't see abolishing the Maori seats as assisting with these at all. 


old3eyes
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  #1825869 20-Jul-2017 13:26
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MikeB4:

 

At some time Maori will need to decide if the 7 Maori seats are needed and a vote can be taken. This issue is however clouding  New Zealand  has with serious social issues facing Maori such as inadequate housing, poverty, suicide etc. I know these are not just restricted to Maori but they are very over represented in these issues. I don't see abolishing the Maori seats as assisting with these at all. 

 

 

Leaving it to Maori to decide will never happen.  It's their politicians gravy train  and the longer they can milk it the better for them.  These things should have been gone when MMP came in.  Hey why not  PI, Indian, Chinese  special seats  as well??





Regards,

Old3eyes


Wiggum
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  #1825871 20-Jul-2017 13:29
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tdgeek:

 

Wiggum:

 

 

 

The Maori roll in 2017 is made up of just 238,866 people. Therefore a very small amount on Maori roll, yet 7 seats in parliament.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Rough numbers thats 7% are Maori roll  238k/3.1M

 

7 seats is 5%   7/122

 

In fact Maori are under represented by these 7 seats?

 

 

True. But conciser the value of those seats, and that not every new Zealander has the right to vote for them.

 

Consider Kingmaker, (which is probably why Winston wants them gone). Is it democratic when a certain party gets to decide who is going to be the next government? Sure, nothing really wrong with that providing that every new Zealander had the choice to vote for that party if they wanted to. But what if only certain New Zealanders got to vote for that party? This is the problem with the Maori Electives, only Maori can be on the Maori Electives, therefore only Maori could be kingmaker in such an instance. Not very democratic at all.

 

 


6FIEND
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  #1825873 20-Jul-2017 13:34
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Rikkitic:

 

But the question remains, what can (or should) be done? Using 'equal treatment for all' as an excuse to accept an unequal staus quo isn't an answer either.

 

 

 

Indeed.  My instinct says that our Welfare System is at the root of many of the issues.  In simple terms, it molly-coddles and obviates any requirement for personal responsibility or accountability.  It extinguishes, at a very young age, any motivation to apply oneself (at school, at work, in society at large) in order to become independent and rewards/incentivises poor decision making that leads to further state dependency. 

 

But I'm not qualified or trained to recommend what can or should be done... 

 

I simply don't believe that trying to solve problems by focusing on the ethnicity of the people most effected is an approach that has worked.  Perhaps we should instead divert our attentions to solving (or reducing) the problems themselves.

 

EDIT:  To provide more clarity - consider an arbitrary "bad thing" like cancer.  Imagine that is disproportionately effects people of a particular ethnicity. (In fact, it does)  On one hand, you might have someone advocating for special screening centres for that ethnicity, special treatment plans or increased subsidies if you're of that ethnicity, you might get dedicated representation on Health Boards.  Have more people of that ethnicity accepted to university to study cancer and its treatments. Etc.  On the other hand, you could invest all that resource into researching treatments, prevention, and ultimately cures for cancer - and the people of that most effected ethnicity would benefit disproportionately.  (Without any resentment whatsoever.)




frankv
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  #1825887 20-Jul-2017 13:55
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Wiggum:

 

frankv:

 

There is no disproportional representation. There are about the same number of Maori roll voters in each Maori electorate as there are general roll voters in each general roll electorate. The Maori electorates are reviewed every 5 years to maintain that. What's more, given that Parliamentary seats are allocated proportionally based on the Party vote, there would be no significant change to Parliament's makeup if the Maori seats were abolished.

 

 

Disproportional representation has already been discussed. its proven already.

 

 

Can you give me a link please?

 

AFAICT, it's been discussed, but the points I made haven't been considered, let alone proven false.

 

 


frankv
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  #1825893 20-Jul-2017 14:01
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Wiggum:

 

MikeB4:

 


However the Maori Party only have one of the seven Maori electorates, Labour hold the other six.

 

Which makes it even worse for an unproportional representation don't you think?

 

Labour has 6 seats which they never earned at the ballot box.

 

Our system really is skewed.

 

 

Let's accept at face value your premise that Labour has acquired 6 of the 7 Maori electorates without earning them. But Labour's total number of seats depends on its Party vote nationally. Whether they win the Maori seats or not doesn't affect the number of seats that Labour gets. They get within 1% or so of the number of seats that they have actually earned. If they have 6 unearned Maori seats, then they have 6 less List seats.

 

No skewing at all.

 

 


MikeAqua
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  #1825909 20-Jul-2017 14:27
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6FIEND:

 

 

 

EducationHealthWelfareViolence. Suicide

 

 

With all those depressing stats where/what is this Maori privilege you speak of? 

 

Assuming such a thing were possible: Would you swap what you have for that privilege?

 

 

 

 





Mike


Batman
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  #1825914 20-Jul-2017 14:35
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Maori seats should be proportionate to Maori voters. 7% of voters, 7% of seats. If 1%, then 1%. If they are willing to let it go without the Treaty falling apart, then best be gone. But established, using the reason of its establishment being no longer relevant usually isn't enough to dismantle.




Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


MikeAqua
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  #1825924 20-Jul-2017 14:45
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Batman: Maori seats should be proportionate to Maori voters. 7% of voters, 7% of seats.

 

They are proportionate to the number of people on the Maori electoral role.





Mike


frankv
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  #1825928 20-Jul-2017 14:48
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6FIEND:

 

A point of principle? - Yes.  I believe that it is thoroughly unprincipled to single out a particular demographic (be it gender, sexuality, race, whatever.) and treat them differently to the rest of humanity ...

 

 

This is where we differ. To me, the important principle is that all people should have equal opportunity, irrespective of whatever demographic they are categorised into. That means that underprivileged children get assistance so that they get the same education and health care as the children of the privileged. "Treating everyone the same" is a way of justifying a system that means only a select demographic gets access to the benefits of society. e.g. "We'll allow everyone to go to MedSchool and become rich doctors" sounds great; except that some people can't afford the fees, or have had a sh!t life as kids. So it's in fact code for "Only kids of rich and caring parents can go to MedSchool and become rich doctors".

 

 

 

Simply put - all the "Maori privilege" in its various guises hasn't worked.  

 

 

It's about Maori underprivilege, not "Maori privilege".

 

 

For all the "positive discrimination" currently afforded to Maori, the outcome remains extremely poor - if not worsening, with new records for undesirable metrics being set with depressing regularity.

 

EducationHealthWelfareViolence. Suicide.  It hasn't worked.

 

 

Right. Perhaps the "privilege" given to Maori has been tokenism to appease the middle class conscience whilst the system continues to operate as usual.

 

I do agree with you that this shouldn't be race-based. It should be available to every family in the country. But, as you rightly point out, Maori are over-represented in bad outcomes. So it's an easy way to identify a large cohort of needful families to target with assistance. However, I don't see *anyone* saying "We ought to give all those "Maori privileges" to poor white families and poor Indian families and poor Vietnamese families". Nope! Apparently the only answer some people see is to apply the same limitations to the Maori as to the rest. Whilst, incidentally, maintaining their own privileged position.

 

 

What is has driven is an increase in negative behaviours.  Separatism, an "us vs. them" mentality, a victim mentality, intergenerational dependency on welfare and an entrenched belief that Maori couldn't possibly function in the modern world without special dispensations.   

 

 

You don't think that those could be caused by living in a system which they perceive as being set up to maintain white privilege? Incidentally, those are *your* thoughts that you are projecting onto Maori; For example, I don't think there's any evidence that they have "an entrenched belief that Maori couldn't possibly function in the modern world without special dispensations". But perhaps this is something that *you* have an entrenched belief about? In my view, the Maori (rightly) believe that, after generations of theft and ill-treatment, they are in a bit of a hole, and need a bit of assistance to get back onto even terms.

 

 

All of that "privilege" comes at significant cost.  Both financial, societal, and opportunity cost.  And to put your question back to you...

 

"Surely there are bigger issues to worry about in this country"

 

 

 

 

Given those significant costs that you mention, surely this *is* something we need to worry about?

 

There's also a huge financial, societal, and opportunity cost of maintaining a system whereby a few white guys collect most of the money made in NZ. 

 

 


Wiggum
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  #1825939 20-Jul-2017 15:12
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frankv:

 

 

 

This is where we differ. To me, the important principle is that all people should have equal opportunity, irrespective of whatever demographic they are categorised into. That means that underprivileged children get assistance so that they get the same education and health care as the children of the privileged. "Treating everyone the same" is a way of justifying a system that means only a select demographic gets access to the benefits of society. e.g. "We'll allow everyone to go to MedSchool and become rich doctors" sounds great; except that some people can't afford the fees, or have had a sh!t life as kids. So it's in fact code for "Only kids of rich and caring parents can go to MedSchool and become rich doctors".

 

 

 

 

Nothing wrong with this. The problem is picking these people based on their race and culture. The "maori Electives", the "maori All Black team", the "maori only scholorships" etc etc ...

 

frankv:

 

It's about Maori underprivilege, not "Maori privilege".

 

 

Again, nothing wrong with that, just remove the term Maori. This should not be about race.

 

 

 

 


eph

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  #1825945 20-Jul-2017 15:25
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All those in favour of Maori seats (and their other privileges) make it sound like Maori are the poorest, most disadvantaged ethnic group in NZ. 

 

What about other Polynesian people (aka "Islanders") who got no special privileges, no treaty to protect them but they are the worst off ethnic group in NZ? Asians are not much better off either (not talking about recent waves of rich Chinese coming to the country)...


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