Man stole trampoline 'to feed his family'

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Forums › Politics › Man stole trampoline 'to feed his family'

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883 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1828927 25-Jul-2017 10:57

networkn:

I find it hard to marry up your assertion you are honest and hard-working with your support of MT. Is it just that YOU wouldn't do it, but you don't care if others break the law? I am not being sarcastic, but I just don't "get" it? Do you believe the ends justify the means?

I'm fortunate that I'm not in a position where I have to decide between breaking the law and feeding my family. I have considerable empathy for those in that impossible situation. I have respect for someone who admits they had to break the law to survive and devotes the rest of their working life to trying to improve that situation so that others don't have to. More respect, in fact, than for those who benefitted from the social safety net and devoted their careers to trying to tighten it or remove it entirely. And considerably more respect than for the very wealthy who didn't need public money at all but still restructured their affairs using legal loopholes so they could get it.

Basically I view Metiria's crime as a symptom of a broken system rather than a cynical and selfish attempt to personally profit. I personally place it at the very lowest end of the criminal scale. I think more people than would like to admit it would probably have done the same thing in her position. Really easy to judge when it's not your life.

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Wiggum

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#1828929 25-Jul-2017 10:58

allio:

Wiggum:

I did not speak on behalf of you.

I don't really get why she came out with this? Sure she may have gathered a lot of support for herself, and also lost a lot of honest/hardworking kiwi votes in the process.

Maybe you one of the few honest/hardworking one's that continues to support this fraud of a woman.

I suppose I must be!

Look, you're entitled to hold and tout any opinion you want, but don't wrap yourself up with all hard working and honest New Zealanders. You speak for yourself only. I'm a hard working and honest New Zealander who happens to hold views which are virtually the complete opposite of yours.

You'd probably object if I declared that all New Zealanders who gave a damn about other people supported Metiria's actions - and rightly so.

Again, as said before I stand by that statement and am happy to be proved wrong. I do find it extremely hard to believe that there are many "honest", "hardworking" kiwis still supporting Metiria. Each to their own, and not implying you not hardworking/honest. Maybe your loyalty to her/and or the greens just trumps common sense.

allio

883 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1828932 25-Jul-2017 11:01

kryptonjohn:

Based on advice from his lawyer.

If your house is owned by a trust then you don't own it. If he's a trustee or beneficiary it comes down to the wording of the deed.

Still waiting to see a shred of equivalence to knowingly committing fraud.

I really don't care if Bill had very smart and well-paid lawyers who managed to dot every I and cross every T when they were structuring his financial affairs so he could rort the taxpayer for an allowance he didn't need and didn't deserve.

Wiggum

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#1828934 25-Jul-2017 11:04

allio:

kryptonjohn:

Based on advice from his lawyer.

If your house is owned by a trust then you don't own it. If he's a trustee or beneficiary it comes down to the wording of the deed.

Still waiting to see a shred of equivalence to knowingly committing fraud.

I really don't care if Bill had very smart and well-paid lawyers who managed to dot every I and cross every T when they were structuring his financial affairs so he could rort the taxpayer for an allowance he didn't need and didn't deserve.

So Bill rorted the taxpayers and Metiria is a hero?

Fred99

13684 posts

Uber Geek

#1828935 25-Jul-2017 11:05

networkn:

Fred99:

networkn:

Fred99:

Sure - it was a serious misfire - very poorly judged admission.

The timing of it - I'm only guessing - could have probably been more than coincidence, perhaps to draw attention to allegations (shut down by legal threats) made about the life of the present deputy PM when she was on a benefit. The misfire that rather than direct attention to those allegations - it drew attention away.

TBH - I couldn't care a flying fig about what either did when on the DPB. For both it was a long long time ago.

The timing of it? She thought if she admitted it, people would feel sorry for her and she would get a bunch of political capital out of it. As if what she did originally wasn't bad enough, her motivations for announcing it like that, appalled me.

That's a wild stretch of imagination. I don't think sympathy for her was the objective - sympathy for present beneficiaries was.

As I said - it was a serious misfire. Beneficiary-bashing has been reinvigorated.

F&^$ I hate election year - it really brings out the worst in pepole.

Don't you think she announced it in an effort to gain political capital?

Could you just opt not to partipate in political discussions online? /me shrugs.

For the record, I am not, nor do I see any, bashing here, except of MT. The two people people discussed are the guy who stole a trampoline and the women who stole taxpayers funds.

Sure she did it in attempt to gain political capital. It misfired.

She should have kept schtung about past mistakes. Most politicians do.

There's an undercurrent opinion that the law is the law above all else, that beneficiaries who don't declare all income are evil criminals, and should be put in stocks and flayed.

My more pragmatic view is that being on a benefit probably isn't very nice, and making a few extra dollars however they may - trading some stuff on TM, doing a few cashie jobs etc is the norm - not the exception.

allio

883 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1828937 25-Jul-2017 11:05

Wiggum:

So Bill rorted the taxpayers and Metiria is a hero?

Cool how there are different ways of looking at things, isn't it? :)

Put it this way - did Bill need that $32k (before he was caught) to feed his children?

Fred99

13684 posts

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#1828939 25-Jul-2017 11:06

Wiggum:

So Bill rorted the taxpayers and Metiria is a hero?

Heh - that's an own goal, Bill is a hero.

kryptonjohn

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#1828940 25-Jul-2017 11:07

allio:

kryptonjohn:

Based on advice from his lawyer.

If your house is owned by a trust then you don't own it. If he's a trustee or beneficiary it comes down to the wording of the deed.

Still waiting to see a shred of equivalence to knowingly committing fraud.

I really don't care if Bill had very smart and well-paid lawyers who managed to dot every I and cross every T when they were structuring his financial affairs so he could rort the taxpayer for an allowance he didn't need and didn't deserve.

Understandable!

Personally I do my best to "rort" the tax payer to the maximum practical legal extent that I can, every year, when I do my tax returns. And I consider it my duty to do so as I am quite sure I can spend that money better than the government.

MikeB4

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#1828942 25-Jul-2017 11:09

Wiggum:

allio:

Wiggum:

I did not speak on behalf of you.

I don't really get why she came out with this? Sure she may have gathered a lot of support for herself, and also lost a lot of honest/hardworking kiwi votes in the process.

Maybe you one of the few honest/hardworking one's that continues to support this fraud of a woman.

I suppose I must be!

Look, you're entitled to hold and tout any opinion you want, but don't wrap yourself up with all hard working and honest New Zealanders. You speak for yourself only. I'm a hard working and honest New Zealander who happens to hold views which are virtually the complete opposite of yours.

You'd probably object if I declared that all New Zealanders who gave a damn about other people supported Metiria's actions - and rightly so.

Again, as said before I stand by that statement and am happy to be proved wrong. I do find it extremely hard to believe that there are many "honest", "hardworking" kiwis still supporting Metiria. Each to their own, and not implying you not hardworking/honest. Maybe your loyalty to her/and or the greens just trumps common sense.

I do not or I may support Ms Turei that is irrelevant to this discussion, I do however dislike the modern day versions of the lynch mob that online sites so often reveal. Ms Turei has not been charged with an offence, she has not had a debt to the Crown established or her historical entitlement assessed. She has admitted to failing to fully declare her circumstances to MSD at the time she was on income support. MSD may do a retrospective review or they may not. She may or may not owe MSD/ The Crown any money. MSD may or may not decide to prosecute.

Wiggum

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#1828947 25-Jul-2017 11:11

allio:

Wiggum:

So Bill rorted the taxpayers and Metiria is a hero?

Cool how there are different ways of looking at things, isn't it? :)

Put it this way - did Bill need that $32k (before he was caught) to feed his children?

So man who stole trampoline to feed his kids committed no crime?

The trampoline belonged to other kids, who would have been heart broken. But hey, maybe they were rich kids, so that's OK.

And I will say it again, Bill committed no crime, he never broke a law. Happy to discuss this one further with you, just provide some evidence. Not assumptions and hot air.

Wiggum

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#1828948 25-Jul-2017 11:13

kryptonjohn:

Personally I do my best to "rort" the tax payer to the maximum practical legal extent that I can, every year, when I do my tax returns. And I consider it my duty to do so as I am quite sure I can spend that money better than the government.

+1. I use a tax consultant. Maybe its time I did it myself.

jonathan18

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#1828951 25-Jul-2017 11:15

Fred99:

Sure she did it in attempt to gain political capital. It misfired.

She should have kept schtung about past mistakes. Most politicians do.

There's a suggestion from some that Turei's admission came following news some of her opponents had the dirt on her, and so she was front-footing it before/if it came out via other means. There was also talk of whether it was better to admit to it now rather than it come out if she found herself in a position of becoming a minister, post-election - especially if she had any interest in the social development portfolio.

This was raised by Matthew Hooton in the politics segment on yesterday's Nine to Noon (RNZ National).

kryptonjohn

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#1828974 25-Jul-2017 11:17

I have an accountant as it's too complex for me with family trust, limited liability company and employees involved.

Fred99

13684 posts

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#1828983 25-Jul-2017 11:24

jonathan18:

Fred99:

Sure she did it in attempt to gain political capital. It misfired.

She should have kept schtung about past mistakes. Most politicians do.

There's a suggestion from some that Turei's admission came following news some of her opponents had the dirt on her, and so she was front-footing it before/if it came out via other means. There was also talk of whether it was better to admit to it now rather than it come out if she found herself in a position of becoming a minister, post-election - especially if she had any interest in the social development portfolio.

This was raised by Matthew Hooton in the politics segment on yesterday's Nine to Noon (RNZ National).

Thanks - I hadn't read that.

Still misjudged though - she should have volunteered to pay back the money immediately as part of the admission.

Greens style DIY crisis management won't beat professional spin.

allio

883 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1828984 25-Jul-2017 11:24

Wiggum:

So man who stole trampoline to feed his kids committed no crime?

The trampoline belonged to other kids, who would have been heart broken. But hey, maybe they were rich kids, so that's OK.

And I will say it again, Bill committed no crime, he never broke a law. Happy to discuss this one further with you, just provide some evidence. Not assumptions and hot air.

Nice to see this thread has finally returned to the trampoline stealer...

If his genuine motivation for stealing the trampoline was to sell it for money to feed his kids, then yeah I can sympathise with him, more than I could if he stole it for booze money or just because he wanted a trampoline. But either way it's wrong. I'm not saying that anyone with hungry kids can commit whatever crime they want to get them fed. I personally think there's a big difference between committing a crime against another citizen or their property, and claiming more benefit money than you're entitled to in order to meet a genuine basic need. People who think like me think that it's the state's responsibility to ensure that parents can always feed their kids, preferably at the same time as taking steps to lift themselves out of poverty so they no longer need to claim a benefit. If Metiria wasn't able to do that, then my view is that the government wasn't paying her enough.

If evidence emerges that Metiria was partying it up, travelling the world and owned an investment property during the period in question, then I won't have a single word to say in her defence. But I don't think that's likely to be the case.

Again, and this is the last I'll say on it, I personally don't give a crap whether or not Bill technically committed a crime or broke a law. I'm not the Crown Prosecutor so I'm free to judge people morally rather than legally.

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