Man stole trampoline 'to feed his family'

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#1828998 25-Jul-2017 11:45

MikeAqua:

frankv:

You *can* selectively apply it [law], so long as there is ethical basis for what you do.

History has shown that we can't rely on ethics instead of law. Ethics differ widely between cultures and individuals, and are highly subjective.

Many experiments and real life events have proven peoples' ethics to be highly flexible/optional and quickly surrendered in difficult situations.

The law and in particular criminal law, human rights law and (to a lesser extent) employment law generally reflect minimum standards of ethical behaviour. They exclude particularly many particularly unacceptable behaviours and do so in a largely objective way. They change over time to reflect societies views.

This is an intelligent comment and to an extent I agree. But I also believe in civil disobedience. Legislators often enact laws that are poorly thought out, have unintended consequences, or are simply evil. There are many, many examples of this, large and small. Unjust laws can be and should be challenged. That is the ethical response.

I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney

Rikkitic

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#1829010 25-Jul-2017 11:53

Wiggum:

allio:

Thanks also for your declaration that no "honest/hardworking" kiwis (I presume you generously include yourself in this group?) could empathise with her situation. What does that make the rest of us, in your books? Go on, say it.

I stand by that statement. The election results will tell. Most honest/hardworking Kiwis dont want a fraudster in charge of social development. What a disaster! The election results will be the proof. Happy to retract this statement and admit I got it wrong after elections.

Some of us will hold you to that. I like the way the epithet 'hard-working' is always hauled out of the larder to describe the sweaty-browed, heavy lifting, square-jawed, steely-eyed iron-driving men (and women, of course) whose intense unceasing honest labour keep all those shameless welfare spongers afloat.

I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney

kryptonjohn

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#1829012 25-Jul-2017 11:57

Rikkitic:

me of us will hold you to that. I like the way the epithet 'hard-working' is always hauled out of the larder to describe the sweaty-browed, heavy lifting, square-jawed, steely-eyed iron-driving men (and women, of course) whose intense unceasing honest labour keep all those shameless welfare spongers afloat.

For brevity I'd just call them "tax payers".

Wiggum

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#1829030 25-Jul-2017 12:32

allio:

I'm fortunate that I'm not in a position where I have to decide between breaking the law and feeding my family. I have considerable empathy for those in that impossible situation. I have respect for someone who admits they had to break the law to survive and devotes the rest of their working life to trying to improve that situation so that others don't have to.

If she needed more money from WINZ all she needed to do was name the father of her kid.

She chose not to name the father, and decided to rather lie, and get less money.

She clearly did not need to break any law to "survive".

Besides, using the term "survive" has no ground. It takes very little to "survive". Ask the people in real poverty in Africa. I guess though your definition for "survival" is having petrol in the car, snacks in the cupboard, Sky TV etc.. My definition is simply no water and food to eat, and no structure over your head to keep the rain/cold out.

Breaking the law to steal a loaf of bread to "survive" will get my sympathy. PS a loaf of bread costs $1 in NZ today. There is NO EXCUSE to not being able to afford a loaf of bread.

Rikkitic

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#1829031 25-Jul-2017 12:35

Shouting isn't going to make people listen. Getting off your pompous high horse and engaging in serious debate might.

I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney

kryptonjohn

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#1829045 25-Jul-2017 12:56

Wiggum:

Breaking the law to steal a loaf of bread to "survive" will get my sympathy. PS a loaf of bread costs $1 in NZ today. There is NO EXCUSE to not being able to afford a loaf of bread.

This "survive" talk is a lame self justification attempt by Turei. Many beneficiaries have it much tougher than she did. Turei had one child, contact with the father, and a close mother who was a mayor and MP. Hardly at risk of not surviving. Compare to thousands of benefit mums who are getting by with multiple children and without a well-off parent, who are not resorting to fraud.

I believe MT is a materialistic poseur who wanted stuff she couldn't afford - just like many or most other fraudsters.

allio

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#1829063 25-Jul-2017 13:34

Wiggum:

Sky TV

What is it with you right-wingers and Sky? I'm surprised you didn't go for the full beneficiary-bashing bingo with "a flat screen TV" and "the latest iPhone".

I'm done here, the latest posts from you and kryptonjohn make it very clear our worldviews don't align in any way and that's not likely to ever change. Thanks for the robust discussion.

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#1829067 25-Jul-2017 13:39

kryptonjohn:

Wiggum:

Breaking the law to steal a loaf of bread to "survive" will get my sympathy. PS a loaf of bread costs $1 in NZ today. There is NO EXCUSE to not being able to afford a loaf of bread.

This "survive" talk is a lame self justification attempt by Turei. Many beneficiaries have it much tougher than she did. Turei had one child, contact with the father, and a close mother who was a mayor and MP. Hardly at risk of not surviving. Compare to thousands of benefit mums who are getting by with multiple children and without a well-off parent, who are not resorting to fraud.

I believe MT is a materialistic poseur who wanted stuff she couldn't afford - just like many or most other fraudsters.

Clearly you must have great insight into her personal financial circumstances at the time.... impressive.

Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

He waka eke noa

Rikkitic

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#1829072 25-Jul-2017 13:47

Comments like some of the above are very judgmental and based on nothing more than personal prejudice. I doubt people who say things like this have ever actually been really poor. I have, and I know what it feels like. I know how hard it can be. And I know it is much, much worse if you have a child and are in that situation.

I have a close friend who was exactly in that position a few years ago. She had two young girls and was trying to put herself through school while on benefit and gain a degree. If you want to talk about hard work, she was and is one of the hardest-working people I have ever known and she did eventually graduate, go to work and get off the benefit. Today she has her own business and owns three houses (and pays honest taxes on all of it).

Doing something like this is much, much harder than some of the smug self-satisfied types here could ever imagine. Especially if you have young children and cannot even afford to feed them properly. She did the best she could with what she had and her kids were never seriously deprived, but they sometimes had to get through an evening on baked beans and instant fizzy drink and occasionally not even that because money was so tight. They missed out on some school activities that she simply couldn’t afford though she was very creative at making sure they got to experience as much as possible. For example, she couldn’t pay for summer camp so she sent them to some that were run by conservative Christian groups. In place of payment the girls had their heads filled with religious propaganda, but they grew out of it and they were at least able to spend some of the time playing in the outdoors and just being kids. They actually managed to have pretty good childhoods, and I know because I was part of it, helping out where I could. And I can assure you that nothing makes you feel worse than the disappointment of your child when you have to tell her she can’t do something she really wants to because there just isn’t money for it.

Oh, and my friend also had reasonably well-off parents she was close to, and her family did help out, and it also makes you feel like utter crap when you have to keep going to them with your hand out so you don’t do it unless things are really desperate. Flippant comments about things like this demonstrate nothing but arrogant ignorance.

So where was the useless druggie father in all this, the so-superior moral high grounders demand to know? Well, actually he committed suicide, which was how the family got into this unhappy place to begin with.

People who are so quick to pass judgment on others rarely know their stories, or bother to find out. I don’t know anything about Metiria Turei’s family background, or her relationship with her parents, or the father of her child, or anything else, and I certainly would not presume to tell the world how it should be treating her. Some of you in the so-certain howling mob here really need to go away and think about things for awhile.

Oh, and they never had Sky either.

I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney

Wiggum

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#1829081 25-Jul-2017 14:04

Rikkitic:

Comments like some of the above are very judgmental and based on nothing more than personal prejudice. I doubt people who say things like this have ever actually been really poor. I have, and I know what it feels like. I know how hard it can be. And I know it is much, much worse if you have a child and are in that situation.

I have a close friend who was exactly in that position a few years ago. She had two young girls and was trying to put herself through school while on benefit and gain a degree. If you want to talk about hard work, she was and is one of the hardest-working people I have ever known and she did eventually graduate, go to work and get off the benefit. Today she has her own business and owns three houses (and pays honest taxes on all of it).

Doing something like this is much, much harder than some of the smug self-satisfied types here could ever imagine. Especially if you have young children and cannot even afford to feed them properly. She did the best she could with what she had and her kids were never seriously deprived, but they sometimes had to get through an evening on baked beans and instant fizzy drink and occasionally not even that because money was so tight. They missed out on some school activities that she simply couldn’t afford though she was very creative at making sure they got to experience as much as possible. For example, she couldn’t pay for summer camp so she sent them to some that were run by conservative Christian groups. In place of payment the girls had their heads filled with religious propaganda, but they grew out of it and they were at least able to spend some of the time playing in the outdoors and just being kids. They actually managed to have pretty good childhoods, and I know because I was part of it, helping out where I could. And I can assure you that nothing makes you feel worse than the disappointment of your child when you have to tell her she can’t do something she really wants to because there just isn’t money for it.

Oh, and my friend also had reasonably well-off parents she was close to, and her family did help out, and it also makes you feel like utter crap when you have to keep going to them with your hand out so you don’t do it unless things are really desperate. Flippant comments about things like this demonstrate nothing but arrogant ignorance.

So where was the useless druggie father in all this, the so-superior moral high grounders demand to know? Well, actually he committed suicide, which was how the family got into this unhappy place to begin with.

People who are so quick to pass judgment on others rarely know their stories, or bother to find out. I don’t know anything about Metiria Turei’s family background, or her relationship with her parents, or the father of her child, or anything else, and I certainly would not presume to tell the world how it should be treating her. Some of you in the so-certain howling mob here really need to go away and think about things for awhile.

Oh, and they never had Sky either.

You describing poor people. Big difference to poor people, and people struggling to "survive". The above is far from "struggling to survive".

I am not going to even entertain your wall of text. What I will say though is that you have passed judgement on myself, as well as many other people on this forum. Especially those that have a different view from your own. Practice what you preach!

kryptonjohn

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#1829086 25-Jul-2017 14:10

None of the above emotionalism escapes this fact: MT was in better off situation than thousands of beneficiary mums who were not fraudsters.

Don't need any "great insight" to know this.

Rikkitic, you have no idea about me nor how poor I have been. You throw out stuff like "smug self-satisfied" and "moral high grounders" then criticise people for being quick to pass judgement.

Pure hypocrisy.

Just like MT demanding others resign for their misdemeanors.

Wiggum

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#1829087 25-Jul-2017 14:11

MikeB4:

Clearly you must have great insight into her personal financial circumstances at the time.... impressive.

She was not "struggling to survive".

There is more to this story, the truth will come out. Hopefully before elections. Either way though it does not really matter, the credibility of the Greens has gone out of the window. Not because of what she may be guilty of, but because of her arrogance, and her clear entitlement attitude.

Rikkitic

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#1829089 25-Jul-2017 14:16

You two can massage each other. I have had it with this thread. Maybe you will grow up one day.

I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney

kryptonjohn

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#1829091 25-Jul-2017 14:18

Can't argue on facts, call people names, throw your toys on the floor and stomp off? If that's being 'grown up' I'll pass, thanks all the same.

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#1829119 25-Jul-2017 14:42

There is a recent trend here on GZ to have many threads with a political aspect to be hijacked by relatively new members who typically are of a relatively far right persuasion. This thread is a perfect example.

Their politics aren't so much an issue with me, but rather it's the dogmatic, strident and even angry tone in which their views are spewed forth; further, many posts appear to simply be trolling to elicit a bite from someone. The more nuanced discussions that have been possible in the past amongst members with a wide variety of perspectives seem to get side-tracked or simply peter out as, one-by-one, other members get tired of the same old back-and-forth where there's always lots of smoke but little fire,.

I don't think anyone's perspectives or views are going to be changed by this kind of dialogue, and I for one am really tired of it - my guess is, though, given it's election year this is going to continue for the next few months at least... Guess it's time to stay away from these types of "off topic threads!

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