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  # 1827261 22-Jul-2017 19:04
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Getting back on topic, the visible evidence of  homelessness that is people sleeping rough in the streets and parks, those sleeping in cars are the tip of the iceberg. Over crowding, substandard housing, garages, emergency housing are all the non visible symptoms. This does not take into account the health and complex social issues. These have the real risk of becoming generational if urgent real action is not taken and taken soon.





Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  # 1827262 22-Jul-2017 19:08
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MikeB4:

 

Getting back on topic, the visible evidence of  homelessness that is people sleeping rough in the streets and parks, those sleeping in cars are the tip of the iceberg. Over crowding, substandard housing, garages, emergency housing are all the non visible symptoms. This does not take into account the health and complex social issues. These have the real risk of becoming generational if urgent real action is not taken and taken soon.

 

 

Good point. The "homeless" does imply to many I guess that its "homeless". Park benches, newspaper blankets, and those that sleep on the street. But it goes far further than that. Displacement is possibly another term. 


 
 
 
 


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  # 1827263 22-Jul-2017 19:11
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MikeB4:

 

Getting back on topic, the visible evidence of  homelessness that is people sleeping rough in the streets and parks, those sleeping in cars are the tip of the iceberg. Over crowding, substandard housing, garages, emergency housing are all the non visible symptoms. This does not take into account the health and complex social issues. These have the real risk of becoming generational if urgent real action is not taken and taken soon.

 

 

 

 

In cities there have always been people who have slept rough. eg under the motorway bridges etc. I believe one who died about a decade ago actually had quite a lot of money. People always think of these people when they think of homeless people, but they are generally at the extreme side of the scale, and  some may have other problems (eg mental ones)

 

 


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  # 1827265 22-Jul-2017 19:17
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mattwnz:

 

MikeB4:

 

Getting back on topic, the visible evidence of  homelessness that is people sleeping rough in the streets and parks, those sleeping in cars are the tip of the iceberg. Over crowding, substandard housing, garages, emergency housing are all the non visible symptoms. This does not take into account the health and complex social issues. These have the real risk of becoming generational if urgent real action is not taken and taken soon.

 

 

 

 

In cities there have always been people who have slept rough. eg under the motorway bridges etc. I believe one who died about a decade ago actually had quite a lot of money. People always think of these people when they think of homeless people, but they are generally at the extreme side of the scale, and  some may have other problems (eg mental ones)

 

 

 

 

Yep. Some prefer that lifestyle too. TV article a couple of nights ago showed that, that was the funeral for the guy that died. As you say, these are the extremes, and not the norm, as we don't see all the bulk others that are more the issue as Mike says


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  # 1827268 22-Jul-2017 19:23
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Fred99:


Chart from Yale University YaleGlobal report



Hi,

Its not that I dont think that we shouldnt talk about this, but as always it pays for eveyone to be on the same page about what “homelessness” means in terms of this graph (in case anyone hadn’t checked):

http://www.oecd.org/els/family/HC3-1-Homeless-population.pdf

[i]Australia, the Czech Republic and New Zealand report a relatively large incidence of homelessness, and this is partly explained by the fact that these countries adopt a broad definition of homelessness. In Australia people are considered as homeless if they have “no other options to acquire safe and secure housing are without shelter, in temporary accommodation, sharing accommodation with a household or living in uninhabitable housing”. In the Czech Republic the term homeless covers “persons sleeping rough (roofless), people who are not able to procure any dwelling and hence live in accommodation for the homeless, and people living in insecure accommodation and people staying in conditions which do not fulfil the minimum standards of living [...]”. In New Zealand homelessness is defined as “living situations where people with no other options to acquire safe and secure housing: are without shelter, in temporary accommodation, sharing accommodation with a household or living in uninhabitable housing.”
The country with the smallest share of homeless persons is Japan (0.004% of the population in 2015) where figures only refer to people sleeping rough. For further information on the national definitions used to collect data on homelessness, see Table HC 3.1.1. [/i]

Middle of second page basically explains that everyone counts differently, which suggests to me it shouldnt be compared in a graph. Apologies if this definition has already been discussed, but might help the conversation be a bit more useful?

Jon


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  # 1827269 22-Jul-2017 19:25
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jonherries:

Jon

 

 

 

The OECD should have a definition and measure of what they consider homelessness to be. So I presume that is what they are basing the graph on. 


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  # 1827270 22-Jul-2017 19:28
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mattwnz:

jonherries:

Jon


 


The OECD should have a definition and measure of what they consider homelessness to be. So I presume that is what they are basing the graph on. 



My point is that the responses vary, it is a questionnaire and each country defines it differently (and the different definitions are in the document). This means that a graph is probably a poor indicator (note it wasnt the OECD that drew the graph).

I work in health and this is a very common issue where people like to compare health systems between countries. Can provide examples if useful?

Jon

 
 
 
 


gzt

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  # 1827272 22-Jul-2017 19:41
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Yeah personally don't trust a graph like that without knowing the variables and I really doubt that one stacks up. The current minister for whatever it's called would have no problems going on TV and pointing out those issues.

There is no doubt in my mind that this 'problem' is massive and at sickening levels.

More and more people are being placed in a situation with lack of housing options that see them sleeping in a car, or on the street. That's the reality.

gzt

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  # 1827275 22-Jul-2017 20:06
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This isn't a 'homeless issue' it's a housing issue. This issue has been destroying quality of life and reducing opportunities in New Zealand for some time now.

The end result is people living in cars and sleeping on the street and in bushes.

Then there is the level up that is even less visible, overcrowded houses and substandard accomodation rented at 'market rates'

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  # 1827277 22-Jul-2017 20:12
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The graph is actually pointless.

 

As per the website:

 

Absence of a definition of homelessness, agreed to by most nations, hampers meaningful comparisons.

 

Its similar to the definition of "Poverty". Its definition is different depending on where you are in the world. 

 

Poverty as defined in New Zealand are the households that make less than 60 per cent of the median disposable income.

 

Its got nothing to do with how much food the poor have, or where they sleep, or if they have shoes. Instead its based on what most people in NZ earn. Therefore no matter how rich we get, we will always have a class of people that are described as living in poverty. Thats why I never take any NZ politician seriously when they start talking about poverty in NZ. We really have none. Its an insult to countries that face actual poverty. We very lucky in NZ, everybody here is actually very well off when compared to most of the rest of the world. 

 

 


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  # 1827278 22-Jul-2017 20:15
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Wiggum:

The graph is actually pointless.


As per the website:


Absence of a definition of homelessness, agreed to by most nations, hampers meaningful comparisons.


Its similar to the definition of "Poverty". Its definition is different depending on where you are in the world. 


Poverty as defined in New Zealand are the households that make less than 60 per cent of the median disposable income.


Its got nothing to do with how much food the poor have, or where they sleep, or if they have shoes. Instead its based on what most people in NZ earn. Therefore no matter how rich we get, we will always have a class of people that are described as living in poverty. Thats why I never take any NZ politician seriously when they start talking about poverty in NZ. We really have none. Its an insult to countries that face actual poverty.


 



Seriously, just stop it. Tomorrow go the library, walk around your city, go to the city mission, look, listen, learn then come back.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  # 1827279 22-Jul-2017 20:18
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MikeB4:
Wiggum:

 

The graph is actually pointless.

 

As per the website:

 

Absence of a definition of homelessness, agreed to by most nations, hampers meaningful comparisons.

 

Its similar to the definition of "Poverty". Its definition is different depending on where you are in the world. 

 

Poverty as defined in New Zealand are the households that make less than 60 per cent of the median disposable income.

 

Its got nothing to do with how much food the poor have, or where they sleep, or if they have shoes. Instead its based on what most people in NZ earn. Therefore no matter how rich we get, we will always have a class of people that are described as living in poverty. Thats why I never take any NZ politician seriously when they start talking about poverty in NZ. We really have none. Its an insult to countries that face actual poverty.

 



Seriously, just stop it. Tomorrow go the library, walk around your city, go to the city mission, look, listen, learn then come back.

 

Seriously? I do all of this every day.

 

I have yet to see a part of NZ where people are worse off than middle class people from countries like India and countries in Africa.

 

You should travel the world a little and humble yourself to what true poverty really is. It will break your heart.


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  # 1827280 22-Jul-2017 20:23
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Wiggum:

 

The graph is actually pointless.

 

As per the website:

 

Absence of a definition of homelessness, agreed to by most nations, hampers meaningful comparisons.

 

Its similar to the definition of "Poverty". Its definition is different depending on where you are in the world. 

 

Poverty as defined in New Zealand are the households that make less than 60 per cent of the median disposable income.

 

Its got nothing to do with how much food the poor have, or where they sleep, or if they have shoes. Instead its based on what most people in NZ earn. Therefore no matter how rich we get, we will always have a class of people that are described as living in poverty. Thats why I never take any NZ politician seriously when they start talking about poverty in NZ. We really have none. Its an insult to countries that face actual poverty. We very lucky in NZ, everybody here is actually very well off when compared to most of the rest of the world. 

 

 

 

 

You sure do know a lot. Such an expert on housing, social welfare, politics, what have you. Full of declamations. This is, that isn't, no room for doubt at all. In fact, you sound a lot like Donald Trump. You must have so much life experience. I bet you're rich as well. Ahh, such wisdom. It drips. Off. You.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


gzt

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  # 1827281 22-Jul-2017 20:26
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Wiggum: The graph is actually pointless.

In your world the current housing crisis with people dropping off the end of the scale is merely an incentive to get an education. In reality the current housing crisis is badly affecting education at all levels.

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  # 1827284 22-Jul-2017 20:38
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gzt: This isn't a 'homeless issue' it's a housing issue. This issue has been destroying quality of life and reducing opportunities in New Zealand for some time now.

The end result is people living in cars and sleeping on the street and in bushes.

Then there is the level up that is even less visible, overcrowded houses and substandard accomodation rented at 'market rates'


You are right that it is a housing issue, and there not being enough houses. So the government needs to answer why they keep bringing more and more people into nz, when we don have enough houses to house our current population. This year is a record year with the number of new immigrants. I suspect if they admit to a housing crisis, it will mean they will have no choice but to slash immigration. The UK had had enough of the immigration inflow, and thus at least in part, voted for brexit. In NZ IMO, we have such a weak opposition, and a poor choice in leader, and some unpopular policies, that I can't see a change in government this time around. Although I would like to see change to fix all the problems.

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