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832 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1855281 30-Aug-2017 13:50
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I guess it depends on how red those rose tinted glasses are when reading that link


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  # 1855289 30-Aug-2017 14:13
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Good on you for taking the trouble to read it. That speaks highly of you.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


 
 
 
 


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  # 1855292 30-Aug-2017 14:22
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Rikkitic:

 

Here is a different perspective. Some people of course will never be persuaded that any other point of view can possibly be worth considering, but for the rest of us, it never hurts to question your assumptions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Until her affairs are in order the Beehive should be off her agenda.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  # 1855293 30-Aug-2017 14:23
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Rikkitic:

 

Here is a different perspective. Some people of course will never be persuaded that any other point of view can possibly be worth considering, but for the rest of us, it never hurts to question your assumptions.

 

 

Ah yes, a good piece, written just like a die hard true Green supporter. Thank goodness they only account for less than 10% of New Zealand's brains.


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  # 1855296 30-Aug-2017 14:26
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Wiggum:

 

Rikkitic:

 

Here is a different perspective. Some people of course will never be persuaded that any other point of view can possibly be worth considering, but for the rest of us, it never hurts to question your assumptions.

 

 

Ah yes, a good piece, written just like a die hard true Green supporter. Thank goodness they only account for less than 10% of New Zealand's brains.

 

 

 

 

Lets not do that.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


1695 posts

Uber Geek


  # 1855575 31-Aug-2017 06:37
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Rikkitic:

Here is a different perspective. Some people of course will never be persuaded that any other point of view can possibly be worth considering, but for the rest of us, it never hurts to question your assumptions.


 


 



Thanks for the link, that was well worth reading.
It is true that the welfare system as it stands now is horrible in so many ways and is far too convoluted.

And where is the outcry against English? We should be far angrier at him and I don't buy that is wasn't the poor darlings fault and not his responsibility. It really does seem the more money you make the more you can get away with without censure.

I particularly disagree with how the (formerly called invalid's benefit) is means tested, I know a couple living on it- it's guaranteed poverty even though the bloke does what he can working what hours he can in IT because the government takes back most of what he makes. They both have long term illnesses. It's built into the system that they can never get ahead financially. You'd think being permanently ill was enough to have to cope with without having to declare every cent you make so the government can cut it back off the very low amount they get to start with. Maybe you have to know someone in the situation to picture it, I don't know, but they are doing it hard and will be forever.

And if your spouse earns over 42k a sick partner with a long term illness gets zero regardless of how much they were formerly earning as it's means tested and you won't qualify for any assistance, it doesn't matter how sick you are. Even America has a weekly benefit called Disability for people who are working then contract a disease through no fault of their own. Now contrast that with ACC. You are better off by far to be injured than to fall ill through no fault of your own.

No, I don't blame people trying to get by- they're trying to pay basic bills, rent, food, petrol and rego to get to work when they have it- not go on a holiday cruise! For some reason people think it can't happen to them.

For Metiria it wasn't the fact she had boarders that did her in, it was the stacking of multiple facts after that which made the story sound more dodgy. Probably it was just a string of half thought out decisions by a very young person at the time and probably she should not have been so harshly judged on them.

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Ultimate Geek


  # 1855604 31-Aug-2017 07:47
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May be a new Topic but is related

 

Google "Paula Bennet Should Go Petition" over 23,000 people have signed. Some very interesting comments 

 

Did not read them all. This is the member who "didn't deliberately" (her words) take extra money from Winz.

 

 


 
 
 
 




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Ultimate Geek
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  # 1855685 31-Aug-2017 09:18
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JayADee:
Rikkitic:

 

Here is a different perspective. Some people of course will never be persuaded that any other point of view can possibly be worth considering, but for the rest of us, it never hurts to question your assumptions. 

 



Thanks for the link, that was well worth reading.
It is true that the welfare system as it stands now is horrible in so many ways and is far too convoluted.

And where is the outcry against English? We should be far angrier at him and I don't buy that is wasn't the poor darlings fault and not his responsibility. It really does seem the more money you make the more you can get away with without censure..

 

 

 

I refrained from commenting on the article because the most pertinent critique that I was going to make was that it was well written, but derived from a false-premise (namely, that English and Key are guilty of more or less the same crimes).  It seems that by leaving falsehood unchallenged, it is all to easy for it to become accepted as fact.

 

I will remember that Bill English and John Key committed essentially the same misdeeds - one lying about his living situation to gain money, one voting in a different electorate from where he lived

 

Bill English never lied about this living situation.  He made full disclosure to Parliamentary Services (including the details of his Family Trust), and followed their recommendations as to what he was entitled to.  He also repaid the accommodation allowance, not because he wasn't lawfully entitled to it, but because he recognised that it wasn't a "good look".

 

John Key owned a property in the electorate that he enrolled to vote in.  There was nothing to prevent him from enrolling there other than a subjective measure of what constitutes as "living".

 

 

What address should I enrol with?

 

You should enrol at the address that you regard as your home. It could be that you are a student in another city but go home for holidays, or that you work in one city during the week and another on weekends. It is your choice as to which place feels most like home to you.

 

That aside, this is merely a distraction from the key issue - namely the sustained, repeated and deliberate fraudulent activity that Turei undertook to extract extra cash from the taxpayer so that she could "have a life" instead of "having a part-time job" while she studied.

 

Even if English and Key had committed the same crimes, it would still be a poor justification for Turei's behaviour.


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  # 1855817 31-Aug-2017 11:08
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The key issue for me, and for many others, is not what she did many years ago, or even her recent failures to admit to it all. The key is the point she was trying to highlight, which is the appalling indignities those on benefits are subjected to, along with the double standard by which they are judged as opposed to affluent pale males like English and Key. This obsession with her 'crimes' (which she didn't have to bring up, of course) obscures the much bigger and more important injustice built into the benefit system that she was trying to highlight. It is a convenient way of ignoring that much bigger and more important matter, and those who make use of it in this way should be ashamed. You have no idea what most beneficiaries have to put up with.

 

Key probably got away with a lot more than just voting in another electorate, but that is ancient history now. The story with English is still unfolding. Apparently he has been less than forthcoming with the Barclay matter and now there is the issue with Winston's pension. Maybe no fire there, but certainly a fair bit of smoke beginning to show. I have begun to suspect in recent days that English is probably at least as duplicitous as Turei, maybe more so. He may just be better at getting away with it. And what is the story now with that Paula Bennett petition. Time will tell.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 




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Ultimate Geek
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  # 1855853 31-Aug-2017 11:47
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I completely agree that Key, English, Bennett, et al. almost certainly aren't squeaky clean.  I wouldn't personally "die in a ditch" for any of them.  But the same can be said for most politicians who have been at the game for any length of time...

 

As you correctly point out, the welfare system is at the heart of this matter.

 

NZ's implementation is widely considered to be among the most comprehensive, universal, and generous systems in the world.  (It's also our single largest "expense" as a Nation)  It has also just been made more generous, with the first "real" increase in benefit rates (beyond CPI adjustments) in decades.

 

Ironic then, that a group of people are shouting louder and louder that it is; punitive, unfair, demeaning, poverty-causing, etc.

 

In my personal opinion, the welfare system is the root of much of the dissatisfaction in NZ.  It represents a viable lifestyle choice and entrenches a victim mentality.  The more "comfortable" you make it in the long term, the less incentive to have for beneficiaries to become independent as soon as possible.  The more money you provide for additional children, the more children will be born to "families" that can't afford to care for them.  The more children being raised in benefit-dependent households, the greater likelihood of more and more kiwi kids having unfavourable outcomes.

 

I don't have the answer - but it sure looks to me as if the answer that we're presently clinging to is not working out well for us!

 

 


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  # 1855927 31-Aug-2017 13:12
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gulfa:

 

May be a new Topic but is related

 

Google "Paula Bennet Should Go Petition" over 23,000 people have signed. Some very interesting comments 

 

Did not read them all. This is the member who "didn't deliberately" (her words) take extra money from Winz.

 

 

 

 

I got curious about this so followed the breadcrumb trail. It brought me to a truly vile anti-semitic far right conspiracy site of a type I thought only existed in America, except this one claims to be Kiwi and appears to have a NZ IP address, though it may actually be located elsewhere. I say that because one thing this site had was the original Facebook post accusing Paula Bennett that has been the target of her lawyers' threats, and I would assume that if the site was located in New Zealand, it would probably have been forced to remove the post, along with some of its other content.

 

I am truly shocked that New Zealand has spawned such a site, though I probably shouldn't be surprised. In any case, I am not prepared to mention the name of it or provide a link. What I was interested in were the Facebook accusations against Paula Bennett, and while I don't think much of the site where I found the post, I don't think it has been tampered with. The post accuses Bennett of a range of misdeeds that make Metiria Turei look positively angelic in comparison. I have no idea if any of them are true, or even based on partial truths. The poster says he was 10 years old at the time. His memory seems pretty good for someone that age. 

 

I certainly don't think Paula Bennett should be condemned on the basis of these accusations, but I would not be at all surprised if at least some of them turned out to be partly based on truth. Do I think there should be an investigation? Do I think she should go as the petition demands? No to both. As with Metiria Turei, it happened a long time ago if it happened at all, and who she was then is not who she is today. I don't doubt there is some dirt in her background, but that unfortunately is probably true of most politicians. I would not vote for her, but that is because of the current policies she espouses and defends, not something she may or may not have done in the distant past. I don't agree with the reasoning of the people who have rushed to stick the knife into Metiria Turei. They are making it about the person, rather than about ideas or policy. That is the politics of the unintelligent. It is emotion-driven and irrational. It is mob rule. Not a good way to run a country.

 

 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


306 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1855951 31-Aug-2017 13:49
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Rikkitic:

 

gulfa:

 

May be a new Topic but is related

 

Google "Paula Bennet Should Go Petition" over 23,000 people have signed. Some very interesting comments 

 

Did not read them all. This is the member who "didn't deliberately" (her words) take extra money from Winz.

 

 

 

 

I got curious about this so followed the breadcrumb trail. It brought me to a truly vile anti-semitic far right conspiracy site of a type I thought only existed in America, except this one claims to be Kiwi and appears to have a NZ IP address, though it may actually be located elsewhere. I say that because one thing this site had was the original Facebook post accusing Paula Bennett that has been the target of her lawyers' threats, and I would assume that if the site was located in New Zealand, it would probably have been forced to remove the post, along with some of its other content.

 

I am truly shocked that New Zealand has spawned such a site, though I probably shouldn't be surprised. In any case, I am not prepared to mention the name of it or provide a link. What I was interested in were the Facebook accusations against Paula Bennett, and while I don't think much of the site where I found the post, I don't think it has been tampered with. The post accuses Bennett of a range of misdeeds that make Metiria Turei look positively angelic in comparison. I have no idea if any of them are true, or even based on partial truths. The poster says he was 10 years old at the time. His memory seems pretty good for someone that age. 

 

I certainly don't think Paula Bennett should be condemned on the basis of these accusations, but I would not be at all surprised if at least some of them turned out to be partly based on truth. Do I think there should be an investigation? Do I think she should go as the petition demands? No to both. As with Metiria Turei, it happened a long time ago if it happened at all, and who she was then is not who she is today. I don't doubt there is some dirt in her background, but that unfortunately is probably true of most politicians. I would not vote for her, but that is because of the current policies she espouses and defends, not something she may or may not have done in the distant past. I don't agree with the reasoning of the people who have rushed to stick the knife into Metiria Turei. They are making it about the person, rather than about ideas or policy. That is the politics of the unintelligent. It is emotion-driven and irrational. It is mob rule. Not a good way to run a country.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with your comments my only thoughts are was she behind the Winstone Peters information release


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  # 1856011 31-Aug-2017 15:50
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gulfa:

 

Rikkitic:

 

gulfa:

 

May be a new Topic but is related

 

Google "Paula Bennet Should Go Petition" over 23,000 people have signed. Some very interesting comments 

 

Did not read them all. This is the member who "didn't deliberately" (her words) take extra money from Winz.

 

 

 

 

I got curious about this so followed the breadcrumb trail. It brought me to a truly vile anti-semitic far right conspiracy site of a type I thought only existed in America, except this one claims to be Kiwi and appears to have a NZ IP address, though it may actually be located elsewhere. I say that because one thing this site had was the original Facebook post accusing Paula Bennett that has been the target of her lawyers' threats, and I would assume that if the site was located in New Zealand, it would probably have been forced to remove the post, along with some of its other content.

 

I am truly shocked that New Zealand has spawned such a site, though I probably shouldn't be surprised. In any case, I am not prepared to mention the name of it or provide a link. What I was interested in were the Facebook accusations against Paula Bennett, and while I don't think much of the site where I found the post, I don't think it has been tampered with. The post accuses Bennett of a range of misdeeds that make Metiria Turei look positively angelic in comparison. I have no idea if any of them are true, or even based on partial truths. The poster says he was 10 years old at the time. His memory seems pretty good for someone that age. 

 

I certainly don't think Paula Bennett should be condemned on the basis of these accusations, but I would not be at all surprised if at least some of them turned out to be partly based on truth. Do I think there should be an investigation? Do I think she should go as the petition demands? No to both. As with Metiria Turei, it happened a long time ago if it happened at all, and who she was then is not who she is today. I don't doubt there is some dirt in her background, but that unfortunately is probably true of most politicians. I would not vote for her, but that is because of the current policies she espouses and defends, not something she may or may not have done in the distant past. I don't agree with the reasoning of the people who have rushed to stick the knife into Metiria Turei. They are making it about the person, rather than about ideas or policy. That is the politics of the unintelligent. It is emotion-driven and irrational. It is mob rule. Not a good way to run a country.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with your comments my only thoughts are was she behind the Winstone Peters information release

 

 

 

 

I wonder if Winston Peters was behind the Winston Peters leak. He was struggling to find a conspiracy for this election which is his go to election strategy.tongue-out





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  # 1856053 31-Aug-2017 17:09
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Since it's come up:

Quote: Finance Minister Bill English claimed a $900-a-week accommodation allowance he was not entitled to, the auditor-general has found.

However, Auditor-General Lyn Provost did not find fault with Mr English in an eight-page report, saying he acted on advice.

But she criticised Ministerial Services, which approved the allowance, for not raising its doubts about the validity of his claim.

She would not launch a full inquiry, she said.

The rules for ministerial accommodation allowances have now been changed, and Mr English has paid back $32,000 and said he will not take any more after The Dominion Post revealed the claim.

He declared the $1.2 million Karori house as his ministerial residence, after being elected last year, enabling him to claim twice the $24,000 allowance available to ordinary MPs. But he was entitled to the extra only if he had no financial interest in the house.

For the rest of the article: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/3008352/Bill-English-off-housing-hook

I don't know how people can think NZs benefit system is 'generous'. ACC maybe.

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  # 1856111 31-Aug-2017 19:13
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JayADee: 

I don't know how people can think NZs benefit system is 'generous'. ACC maybe.

 

For a given value of generous?

 

Whatever it is now, I strongly disagree with the changes that MT and the Greens are proposing, which in my view are likely only to encourage inter-generational welfare dependency.

 

Long term living on benefit isn't meant to be a comfortable, "dignified" lifestyle option


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