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  # 1856527 1-Sep-2017 11:57
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tdgeek:

 

networkn:

 

 

 

You have made the same points over and over again. JA got on stage and wanted to talk as if she had the facts, and she doesn't. She didn't say "Hey guys, I'd love to talk facts, but because we only saw the books last week, we are still working stuff out", she is stating stuff as fact.  You might want to excuse her, I won't. I wouldn't if the situation was reversed.

 

Simple economics will tell you that if the Government is paying for something, it means the TAXPAYER is paying for it. Just because she is using 7B from the non tax cuts, doesn't mean you aren't paying for it. It's an opportunity cost. Bottom line, whatever the Govt does, everyone pays for. If my kids don't choose tertiary education, then I miss out on those benefits, despite having contributed to those who have. I am not saying *I* have an issue with it, but it's worth nothing because not everyone thinks of what's happening behind the scenes.

 

 

 

 

You also keep repeating that as if its a sad excuse that the books were only recently opened. If the roles were reveresed, Bill would be playing catchup in days to align his policies with whats in the pot. Yes, costs are a cost to all taxpayers. I get no benefit from funding those on the dole, or sickness benefits or DPB people, and probably many many other things. Thats normal, the tertiary thing isnt any different. Apart that it will help more people get better jobs and rely less on Govt and provide more to the economy over time  

 

 

Where is the evidence to support the claim it will help people in the ways you have suggested? To my knowledge, there was no correlation between interest-free student loans and an increase in the quality of education or the number of highly skilled jobs on offer. or number of highly trained people on offer. It was a blatant election bribe one that has been panned by experts the world over. It put a millstone around the necks of the NZ Taxpayer.

 

I can absolutely see the benefit of helping people on a temporary basis with welfare, in an effort to help them to help themselves. I 100% support those who have a legitimate illness that prevents them from working. I applaud ACC's efforts to help those with disabilities to find alternative types of work. My Father in Law had a horrific sporting accident and retrained from being a Builder to being an architect. He as been a contributing member of NZ Taxpaying society for the past 15 years as a result. Money spent on his rehab was paid back many times over. 

 

I think funding tertiary education is a mistake and an expensive one. I worked by ass off whilst I learned, and so did my wife. I think it made us better people. We took responsibility for our learning and I my wife and I are both well trained and moderately succesful in our careers. We already provide assistance to those who are learning by way of student loans and other supplements. If there is a genuine feeling (backed by facts) that this is insufficient, then we could potentially look at increasing it. 

 

I'd be extremely surprised if the benefit to the economy of such a policy equals or is more than the $7B they are suggesting it will cost (I say it will cost more than that).

 

Potentially, if they were to quantify it a lot so that you get a % written off when you finish your course, and another % if you work in NZ in the role you are qualified for for say 2-3 years, but ultimately people need to take responsibility for the benefits they have received. Education shouldn't be any different. I would be keen to see some stats on what percentage of people don't do tertiary education in NZ, and how many of those would honestly say the only reason they didn't do it was cost. THAT should be the primary consideration for whether there is an education policy of this type, otherwise it's essentially buying an election.

 

BTW I think this is the third time that JA has said she will use the cancellation of tax breaks to pay for a policy, I don't think she understands that the total pot is $7B and she can't spend that much 3 times.

 

 


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  # 1856533 1-Sep-2017 12:15
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allio:

 

 

 

For people who bought into the National Party’s PR spin about “Labour in disarray” hook, line and sinker, I can imagine why the dramatic increase in support is difficult to accept. But for those of us who have supported them all along, it's entirely rational.

 

 

IMO that is mostly just nonsense. If you think Labour has good policy for the last 8 years, you'd be in the absolute minority as far as I am concerned (and as far as polls suggest). I know a lot of prior Labour supporters, those people are always lamenting how poor Labour is, how they have lost touch with the people they were supposed to represent. Labour have said themselves they weren't creating policies people wanted, and were doing an even worse job of getting the "message" across. 

 

Labour had 23% support 4 weeks ago. One of the radio presenters, can't recall who, called an electorate of labour supporters and not one of them could list a policy. Sure that's just one group, but it's consistent with what I have seen in the past 8 years. 

 

There has been so much infighting inside of Labour because there is the "old contingent" and the "new contingent" who couldn't agree on how to message and what they should do. 

 

I don't need the press to "tell" me Labour has been a mess, I could see it for myself (They were saying it themselves). it would be one thing to claim they are trying to turn things around, an entirely different one to claim they are hard done by for their low polling for the past 8+ years (To be fair a lot of Labour supporters weren't happy for at least 18 months before the last Election they were in power). If you feel that the change of leader 4 times wasn't a sign of serious internal issues, I am not sure what to tell you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


 
 
 
 




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  # 1856534 1-Sep-2017 12:16
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networkn:

 

 

 

BTW I think this is the third time that JA has said she will use the cancellation of tax breaks to pay for a policy, I don't think she understands that the total pot is $7B and she can't spend that much 3 times.

 

 

 

 

In that case we should agree that student loans should be ended, and tertiary assistance policy should be removed

 

She never said the 7B can be used for this policy or that. She said that 7B is used for the total policy costs, along with surplus and debt repayment being reduced from 22% to 20% and over 2 more years then National

 

 

 

When you say "she can't spend that much 3 times" you put forward that she is stupid? There is no other reason as if she wants to spend it three times that is stupid. Its a lot like the water tax, then an MP says that all wine will be increased by $75 a bottle because of that. Big stretches IMHO.


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  # 1856540 1-Sep-2017 12:24
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tdgeek:

 

networkn:

 

 

 

BTW I think this is the third time that JA has said she will use the cancellation of tax breaks to pay for a policy, I don't think she understands that the total pot is $7B and she can't spend that much 3 times.

 

 

 

 

In that case we should agree that student loans should be ended, and tertiary assistance policy should be removed

 

She never said the 7B can be used for this policy or that. She said that 7B is used for the total policy costs, along with surplus and debt repayment being reduced from 22% to 20% and over 2 more years then National

 

 

 

When you say "she can't spend that much 3 times" you put forward that she is stupid? There is no other reason as if she wants to spend it three times that is stupid. Its a lot like the water tax, then an MP says that all wine will be increased by $75 a bottle because of that. Big stretches IMHO.

 

 

 

 

I don't think she understands economics very well, I'll say that. 

 

I think the current education policies are mostly sufficient unless someone can show me hard evidence to support otherwise. As I said, we could extend current policies, or set limits to the support under Labours new policy, but her currently outlined policy I can't agree with. I'll be incredibly surprised if this new policy peaks interest in people otherwise not considering a tertiary education due to the cost of their student loan post graduation. I'll be even more surprised if the number of highly skilled people significantly increases as a result, more than any other cyclical effect. 

 

Enrollments will likely spike for sure, at least initially. I would be kind of interested to see how many people enrolled in the past 5 years and graduated, vs those in 3 years time. 

 

Creating a policy that has the taxpayer bearing some cost and the student being responsible for their own debt is a better idea.

 

I do wonder who will be doing the "unskilled" work in New Zealand.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  # 1856549 1-Sep-2017 12:34
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I made my comments about the leaders' debate in the 'who should I vote for' thread. I am only posting here to note my disappointment at the two comments in this thread about Jacinda Ardern's appearance. When are we ever going to grow past this 19th century nonsense about the way women in public life look? It doesn't matter. It isn't relevant. It has nothing to do with anything. Or maybe we should discuss Bill English's boring suit and tie and unimaginative hairstyle instead. Get over it guys. Grow up. I don't care what she looks like. I care what she has to say.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 1856560 1-Sep-2017 12:46
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Rikkitic:

 

I made my comments about the leaders' debate in the 'who should I vote for' thread. I am only posting here to note my disappointment at the two comments in this thread about Jacinda Ardern's appearance. When are we ever going to grow past this 19th century nonsense about the way women in public life look? It doesn't matter. It isn't relevant. It has nothing to do with anything. Or maybe we should discuss Bill English's boring suit and tie and unimaginative hairstyle instead. Get over it guys. Grow up. I don't care what she looks like. I care what she has to say.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And yet you had to comment yet again about "Boring bill" as you have done so many times before, and his suit. 

 

I'd be quite interested to see what you would have dressed Bill in. 

 

 

 

 


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  # 1856573 1-Sep-2017 12:58
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networkn:

 

I'd be quite interested to see what you would have dressed Bill in. 

 

 

Farmer overalls to represent his earthiness and connection with the land. A big, floppy hat would also suit him. Definitely gumboots.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


 
 
 
 




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  # 1856574 1-Sep-2017 12:59
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networkn:

 

 

 

I don't think she understands economics very well, I'll say that. 

 

I think the current education policies are mostly sufficient unless someone can show me hard evidence to support otherwise. As I said, we could extend current policies, or set limits to the support under Labours new policy, but her currently outlined policy I can't agree with. I'll be incredibly surprised if this new policy peaks interest in people otherwise not considering a tertiary education due to the cost of their student loan post graduation. I'll be even more surprised if the number of highly skilled people significantly increases as a result, more than any other cyclical effect. 

 

Enrollments will likely spike for sure, at least initially. I would be kind of interested to see how many people enrolled in the past 5 years and graduated, vs those in 3 years time. 

 

Creating a policy that has the taxpayer bearing some cost and the student being responsible for their own debt is a better idea.

 

I do wonder who will be doing the "unskilled" work in New Zealand.

 

 

 

 

I'll grant that to a degree. She is a career politician, she isn't new, but she has been thrust in here at the last minute.Can she match Bill on NZ Govt finances? Of course not, but I feel there is a lot of talent there that may come to pass, and its been a fast and furious short few weeks.  

 

The tertiary, if the student loans has failed as you seem to indicate it has, that should be shelved or another process sought. I personally think its a good idea to get some into Uni or Polytech that cannot otherwise, and I get the hard work you and many of us endured. And I go along with more processes to manage the repayments and when some go overseas. 

 

Unskilled labour, there will always be many who can but dont, or dont have the IQ to better themselves, although trades are there for some. If unskilled labour was in demand, the wages go up

 

End of the day I dont buy that we are so lucky that all the good people just happen to be National MP's, which you didn't say, but imply. Its more case of leadership, and they have that now. By the looks off it Winston will be the decider  


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  # 1856595 1-Sep-2017 13:35
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networkn:

 

If you feel that the change of leader 4 times wasn't a sign of serious internal issues, I am not sure what to tell you.

 

I think National's impending time in Opposition is going to be quite eye-opening for you. Bill is going to get rolled immediately, and then a whole lot of progressively more horrible people are going to repeatedly backstab each other until Nikki Kaye finally takes over in about 2024 and stops the madness. You heard it here first!


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  # 1856613 1-Sep-2017 13:59
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allio:

 

networkn:

 

If you feel that the change of leader 4 times wasn't a sign of serious internal issues, I am not sure what to tell you.

 

I think National's impending time in Opposition is going to be quite eye-opening for you. Bill is going to get rolled immediately, and then a whole lot of progressively more horrible people are going to repeatedly backstab each other until Nikki Kaye finally takes over in about 2024 and stops the madness. You heard it here first!

 

 

No, it won't be eye opening, I was very critical of National when they went through their period of Opposition.




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  # 1856614 1-Sep-2017 13:59
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allio:

 

networkn:

 

If you feel that the change of leader 4 times wasn't a sign of serious internal issues, I am not sure what to tell you.

 

I think National's impending time in Opposition is going to be quite eye-opening for you. Bill is going to get rolled immediately, and then a whole lot of progressively more horrible people are going to repeatedly backstab each other until Nikki Kaye finally takes over in about 2024 and stops the madness. You heard it here first!

 

 

Cant see it. Bill is good. The same steady as JK. Should Labour win, 3 years of opposition and of a new Govt will be very interesting, as will if National win.

 

I see both parties as being very centrist. If nothing else, the Labour invigouration has created many National policies that probably would not have seen the light of day, and also a vigourous opposition if National win. Some accountability for a change and new things to get done which are long overdue 


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  # 1856627 1-Sep-2017 14:26
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tdgeek:

 

 

 

End of the day I dont buy that we are so lucky that all the good people just happen to be National MP's, which you didn't say, but imply. Its more case of leadership, and they have that now. By the looks off it Winston will be the decider  

 

 

No, I don't think there are only good people in National and none in Labour, but I'd say JA is extremely inexperienced and is making stuff up as she goes along. 6 months ago she said she didn't even want the job! What I do believe is that Nationals policies are more in line with my own beliefs about  what is good for all New Zealanders as a whole (Not just for me as an entity or my family). They had different priorities to some in their financial management, but if Labour gets in I expect them to largely burn through any excesses and increase taxation across raft of areas. I expect the water policy to be a disaster and the education policy to be expensive and achieve little or nothing except for a short term bump in enrollment numbers, and I expect that non-completion stats will rocket upward subsequently.

 

Having Andrew Little, a person who has been synonymous with unions is in charge of the small business portfolio, sounds like that will be great for the back bone of New Zealand. Well thought out decision by JA.

 

Magically putting in a new leader doesn't solve the problems Labour has had for many years. She is one face. 

 

Though having said that, in America recently, the Republicans were disgraceful for years while Obama was in power, they got a "new face" who promised all sorts of things and that has worked out great for them.. 

 

Oh wait...

 

 


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  # 1856644 1-Sep-2017 14:40
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tdgeek:

 

allio:

 

networkn:

 

If you feel that the change of leader 4 times wasn't a sign of serious internal issues, I am not sure what to tell you.

 

I think National's impending time in Opposition is going to be quite eye-opening for you. Bill is going to get rolled immediately, and then a whole lot of progressively more horrible people are going to repeatedly backstab each other until Nikki Kaye finally takes over in about 2024 and stops the madness. You heard it here first!

 

 

Cant see it. Bill is good. The same steady as JK. Should Labour win, 3 years of opposition and of a new Govt will be very interesting, as will if National win.

 

I see both parties as being very centrist. If nothing else, the Labour invigouration has created many National policies that probably would not have seen the light of day, and also a vigourous opposition if National win. Some accountability for a change and new things to get done which are long overdue 

 

 

For my money, Labour in opposition for 1 more term, with a strong leader, some policies they will have time to flesh out, providing strong opposition and National understanding people want a more social agenda for the next little while, while still managing things financially better than Labour would, would be a pretty good way forward for all NZ. They get to demonstrate they can keep it together for more than 7 weeks and will have time for all their working groups to decide what is best done in taxation and water etc. 

 

 




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  # 1856670 1-Sep-2017 14:45
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networkn:

 

tdgeek:

 

 

 

End of the day I dont buy that we are so lucky that all the good people just happen to be National MP's, which you didn't say, but imply. Its more case of leadership, and they have that now. By the looks off it Winston will be the decider  

 

 

No, I don't think there are only good people in National and none in Labour, but I'd say JA is extremely inexperienced and is making stuff up as she goes along. 6 months ago she said she didn't even want the job! What I do believe is that Nationals policies are more in line with my own beliefs about  what is good for all New Zealanders as a whole (Not just for me as an entity or my family). They had different priorities to some in their financial management, but if Labour gets in I expect them to largely burn through any excesses and increase taxation across raft of areas. I expect the water policy to be a disaster and the education policy to be expensive and achieve little or nothing except for a short term bump in enrollment numbers, and I expect that non-completion stats will rocket upward subsequently.

 

Having Andrew Little, a person who has been synonymous with unions is in charge of the small business portfolio, sounds like that will be great for the back bone of New Zealand. Well thought out decision by JA.

 

Magically putting in a new leader doesn't solve the problems Labour has had for many years. She is one face. 

 

Though having said that, in America recently, the Republicans were disgraceful for years while Obama was in power, they got a "new face" who promised all sorts of things and that has worked out great for them.. 

 

Oh wait...

 

 

 

 

If Labour gets in I expect them to go fine. Income Tax increases are not on the table, that's been stated, and lets face it, tax increases aren't a Labour mantra

 

They will work through their policies, and those that are "vague" will be made less vague, and I expect her to be more transparent than most past Govts. Off course these are my opinions, she and they are not proven and its a different party IMO, not the unionist backed one of old. Nats, if they win I know what to get, so thats fine by me as well

 

Had Little remained, leaving us the disarray party, do you feel that many of Nats policies they have been churning out would exist? I dont. They are anti Jac policies IMO, as this time round they need to fight for the election, unlike recent times. If nothing else, more policies have been forced out, and more will get done, a good thing. A wee kick up the jacksee. Ive read a lot commenting on why now, and not the last 9 years? JA has pushed things along a bit


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  # 1856675 1-Sep-2017 14:50
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tdgeek:

 

If Labour gets in I expect them to go fine. Income Tax increases are not on the table, that's been stated, and lets face it, tax increases aren't a Labour mantra

 

 

I see you conveniently stated Income Tax. Did you conveniently leave off the other proposed taxes? Petrol/Water/Capital Gains?

 

What about the cancellation of the April 2018 tax cut? To me that is a tax increase right there.

 

When it comes to labour in these elections, unfortunately it does seem to be all about tax increases. 


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