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  # 1856722 1-Sep-2017 15:18
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MikeB4:

 

wasn't disputing that it was not the same just clarifying definitions that's all.

 

 

Apologies, that post was actually directed to @tdgeek




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  # 1856748 1-Sep-2017 15:31
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MikeB4:

 

All governments are about tax unless you are in a country such as Brunei  

 

 

Then its about GOLD   :-)


 
 
 
 


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  # 1856754 1-Sep-2017 15:34
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tdgeek:

 

MikeB4:

 

All governments are about tax unless you are in a country such as Brunei  

 

 

Then its about GOLD   :-)

 

 

I think you mean OIL




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  # 1856784 1-Sep-2017 16:13
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networkn:

 

You and I are talking taxation differently. There are many types. A Tax on water, a tax on roads. Labour has said they intend on user pays type charges to fund their policies. You might not call that Tax, I call it tax. Just not income tax (directly). It wouldn't surprise me to see they end up in a hole and propose a GST increase, and I expect that would see them out of Parliment (and rightly so). 

 

I don't mind about losing Nationals proposed tax decreases, so long as the money saved goes to things that will improve NZ. I am happy for those to be social type policies. 

 

If Labour lose, she will face a Leadership vote. I am not sure the unionist part of the party (which despite what you are claiming, is still alive and well) is that happy with  the direction she is taking Labour. She might survive it, but it may result in her having to front and curb her approach somewhat. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

User Pays. National adopts user pays as well, re the Walking track Tax. User pays is common.

 

Tax

 

The Water Tax and the Petrol Tax are being taken way out of context, as if Labour wants to tax everything it can. The Water Tax is cents per bottle of wine, actually a lot less. Its to help clean our waterways. The Petrol Tax is the same. One off taxes for one off projects. There are a few ways to fund these two particular projects. They can use past and current surpluses. They can put back debt repayment or borrow. All of these will mean that we ALL pay for these from our taxes. These two taxes are targeting the causersand users of the water issues and the users of the transport infrastructure in question. User pays, as is very common and how National collects many taxes.

 

In fact it is a tax reduction for many as many dont drink wine and many dont use those roads, so we are saving that extra tax. Should a bottle of wine cost 10c more and that 10c I know is going to help fix our rotten waterways I have no issue with that. Should Labour say we wont be charging a tax then everyone will be happy, but the fact is, that just means that the tax we ALL pay now is sharing that burden. But hey, we will fix these things and no tax increases. But we will still be paying. These two taxes are a prime target to tell the world that Labour will tax everything. National taxes everything now. Horrible. But its normal. Indirect tax, direct tax, user pays, its all normal, and these two taxes are small and normal, nothing to see here. Should a Govt shy away from new taxes, then that just means that surpluses disappear, and tax cuts slow, so we will ALL pay in the end. But in certain scenarios, user pays is better.

 

 




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  # 1856803 1-Sep-2017 16:25
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networkn:

 

tdgeek:

 

To be fair, tax and levy need to be used. Not just tax, but that does suit in an election. A toll bridge is not a tax bridge. National has had its fair share of tax increases, but again, tax is this years buzz word

 

 

Petrol has been called a Petrol Tax for a long time. 

 

Whatever you call it, Labour is intending on funding it's policies right out of the pockets of a significant number of Kiwi's. 

 

 

 

 

How does National fund its policies? Your comment infers that most of her policies will also have a tax? For both Govts the polices are funded by current and future surpluses, although the future ones are tracking south as per the books. or borrowing, or deriving debt repayments. Both parties do this. As I just posted, these two projects are targeting just those that use or cause them. Thats fair. Or they could just target everyone, and dont bother with the temporary project taxes, either way we will pay for water issues by our tax. Unless Labour taxed JUST the causers, in which case the rest of us dont have to pay. Isn't that fair? 




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  # 1856805 1-Sep-2017 16:27
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networkn:

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/96385172/labour-to-campaign-on-capital-gains-tax-at-next-electionor-maybe-not--kelvin-davis

 

 

 

I am not sure what her definition of clear is, the only thing that is clear to me, is that they aren't sure. 

 

 

 

 

Yes, they are sure, he isn't. Not the first time he has been ticked off, he will be out post election




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  # 1856808 1-Sep-2017 16:30
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Rikkitic:

 

Unless something totally unexpected happens (not unlikely given the way things have gone so far), Labour will lead the next government. Those who are convinced this will mean the end of their way of life, should probably start making emergency plans now. Complain about higher taxes all you like, but if that really is an inevitable consequence, then that is what is going to happen. Better start figuring out how you are going to work with it.

 

 

 

 

Im making plans. Im tallying how many bottles of vino I will drink, and got a piggy bank to save up. I dont often drive in AKL, so I am deducting that tax. I need to drink more wine to use up my petrol tax savings !


 
 
 
 




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  # 1856810 1-Sep-2017 16:33
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networkn:

 

tdgeek:

 

MikeB4:

 

All governments are about tax unless you are in a country such as Brunei  

 

 

Then its about GOLD   :-)

 

 

I think you mean OIL

 

 

I thought they lived in gold? Let me Google

 

Yes gold and opulence, funded by oil


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  # 1856833 1-Sep-2017 17:03
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tdgeek:

 

networkn:

 

tdgeek:

 

 

 

End of the day I dont buy that we are so lucky that all the good people just happen to be National MP's, which you didn't say, but imply. Its more case of leadership, and they have that now. By the looks off it Winston will be the decider  

 

 

No, I don't think there are only good people in National and none in Labour, but I'd say JA is extremely inexperienced and is making stuff up as she goes along. 6 months ago she said she didn't even want the job! What I do believe is that Nationals policies are more in line with my own beliefs about  what is good for all New Zealanders as a whole (Not just for me as an entity or my family). They had different priorities to some in their financial management, but if Labour gets in I expect them to largely burn through any excesses and increase taxation across raft of areas. I expect the water policy to be a disaster and the education policy to be expensive and achieve little or nothing except for a short term bump in enrollment numbers, and I expect that non-completion stats will rocket upward subsequently.

 

Having Andrew Little, a person who has been synonymous with unions is in charge of the small business portfolio, sounds like that will be great for the back bone of New Zealand. Well thought out decision by JA.

 

Magically putting in a new leader doesn't solve the problems Labour has had for many years. She is one face. 

 

Though having said that, in America recently, the Republicans were disgraceful for years while Obama was in power, they got a "new face" who promised all sorts of things and that has worked out great for them.. 

 

Oh wait...

 

 

 

 

If Labour gets in I expect them to go fine. Income Tax increases are not on the table, that's been stated, and lets face it, tax increases aren't a Labour mantra

 

They will work through their policies, and those that are "vague" will be made less vague, and I expect her to be more transparent than most past Govts. Off course these are my opinions, she and they are not proven and its a different party IMO, not the unionist backed one of old. Nats, if they win I know what to get, so thats fine by me as well

 

Had Little remained, leaving us the disarray party, do you feel that many of Nats policies they have been churning out would exist? I dont. They are anti Jac policies IMO, as this time round they need to fight for the election, unlike recent times. If nothing else, more policies have been forced out, and more will get done, a good thing. A wee kick up the jacksee. Ive read a lot commenting on why now, and not the last 9 years? JA has pushed things along a bit

 

 

 

 

I don't think the polices under Little are really much different to those under JA. I think it is mainly window dressing. The problem I think is that the public in general don't really want to care about policies, and many possibly don't fully understand them. It largely comes down to personalities. Lets face it, literally within weeks they have gone from their lowest poll results in many years (or ever) with the old leader, to highest poll results in 10 years after the change in leader, potentially overtaking National. A lot has to do do with people being sick of the same old people, and now there is someone young and energetic. 

 

IMO bringing in a new government does have the potential for major changes to tax, as happened 9 years ago, when the tax working group recommended a GST rise to better balance the tax take. This is because the current governments policies are all costed and budgeted, as they have been running the country for the last 9 years. However a new governments polcies don't appear to be that well costed, and they have only just been given the books to look at. IMO they should already have full access to the books within that 9 years in opposition, so they can also fully cost things regularly. Otherwise we get into the situation that we could face, where there are still a lot of unknowns if a new government is voted in, because they need a working group to look into it. It should be done before hand, so voters are fully informed on what they are voting for. Taking things like income tax rises for high income earners off the table IMO isn't great, as there shouldn't be any restrictions on what is looked at.


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  # 1856838 1-Sep-2017 17:09
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tdgeek:

 

Handle9: The debate didn't move the needle. If you were leaning one way or the other I don't think it changed things.

Both stayed on message pretty well but I think Labour will be happier than National given their momentum.

 

Yes. I was surprised to see that. This latest momentum upswing I dint feel is due to her. Both parties have come up with some nice policies. But with Ahern the flavour of the month still, thats probably grabbed more support, even though National policy announcements were also very good.

 

Plus Labour = Labour + Greens. Greens are gone, so that makes Labour artificially high. If the Greens were going great, the case would be that Labour hasn't improved much with a new, fresh leader.  

 

 

 

 

The thing is that Nationals policies seem to be in reaction to Labours. If we weren't haven't an election, I don't think some f those policies would see the light of day. That is possibly one good thing about having an election every 3 years. But these types of policies are all about getting the vote of certain sectors of society. eg. Offer free education for the first year, and you likely get the student vote.




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  # 1856863 1-Sep-2017 17:19
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mattwnz:

 

tdgeek:

 

Handle9: The debate didn't move the needle. If you were leaning one way or the other I don't think it changed things.

Both stayed on message pretty well but I think Labour will be happier than National given their momentum.

 

Yes. I was surprised to see that. This latest momentum upswing I dint feel is due to her. Both parties have come up with some nice policies. But with Ahern the flavour of the month still, thats probably grabbed more support, even though National policy announcements were also very good.

 

Plus Labour = Labour + Greens. Greens are gone, so that makes Labour artificially high. If the Greens were going great, the case would be that Labour hasn't improved much with a new, fresh leader.  

 

 

 

 

The thing is that Nationals policies seem to be in reaction to Labours. If we weren't haven't an election, I don't think some f those policies would see the light of day. That is possibly one good thing about having an election every 3 years. But these types of policies are all about getting the vote of certain sectors of society. eg. Offer free education for the first year, and you likely get the student vote.

 

 

Yes, what I said earlier. No matter who wins, good will come out of it. Books are good as things have been left. The pity is that the projected surpluses from these books is heading south. 

 

And you are right in your other post, the books should always be available, so the Opposition can track things as well, more to debate, keeps more accountability. Unsure how much they are tracking down, but tax cuts must be a part of that, proving that they are not a wise decision, but for election purposes. 


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  # 1856895 1-Sep-2017 18:43
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tdgeek:

 

mattwnz:

 

tdgeek:

 

Handle9: The debate didn't move the needle. If you were leaning one way or the other I don't think it changed things.

Both stayed on message pretty well but I think Labour will be happier than National given their momentum.

 

Yes. I was surprised to see that. This latest momentum upswing I dint feel is due to her. Both parties have come up with some nice policies. But with Ahern the flavour of the month still, thats probably grabbed more support, even though National policy announcements were also very good.

 

Plus Labour = Labour + Greens. Greens are gone, so that makes Labour artificially high. If the Greens were going great, the case would be that Labour hasn't improved much with a new, fresh leader.  

 

 

 

 

The thing is that Nationals policies seem to be in reaction to Labours. If we weren't haven't an election, I don't think some f those policies would see the light of day. That is possibly one good thing about having an election every 3 years. But these types of policies are all about getting the vote of certain sectors of society. eg. Offer free education for the first year, and you likely get the student vote.

 

 

Yes, what I said earlier. No matter who wins, good will come out of it. Books are good as things have been left. The pity is that the projected surpluses from these books is heading south. 

 

And you are right in your other post, the books should always be available, so the Opposition can track things as well, more to debate, keeps more accountability. Unsure how much they are tracking down, but tax cuts must be a part of that, proving that they are not a wise decision, but for election purposes. 

 

 

 

 

It seems that many are projecting a recession coming, which is never good. But I supposed that comes after a big bull market run. I would far rather things be even, rather than having these booms and busts. The last bust was just after Labour was voted out. If house prices hadn't been allowed to get out of control like they have, then I think we would be in a far better position to weather a recession. I think it is going to hit some people hard this time, as many have got themselves into huge debt. It is largely fueled by greed IMO, but people who have simply wanted a house to live in, are going to get caught up in it. It may not be as bad as some predict, but who know. House sales always dip before an election, and we have also had bad weather, so that will be one of the major reason why house sales have slowed down. So the housing crisis is far from solved.  As well as the LVRs, but they are only a temporary measure, and not actually fixing the core problem. It is a supply and demand  problem, but decreasing demand is the quicker way to solve it, than increasing supply. 




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  # 1856903 1-Sep-2017 19:13
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mattwnz:

 

 

 

It seems that many are projecting a recession coming, which is never good. But I supposed that comes after a big bull market run. I would far rather things be even, rather than having these booms and busts. The last bust was just after Labour was voted out. If house prices hadn't been allowed to get out of control like they have, then I think we would be in a far better position to weather a recession. I think it is going to hit some people hard this time, as many have got themselves into huge debt. It is largely fueled by greed IMO, but people who have simply wanted a house to live in, are going to get caught up in it. It may not be as bad as some predict, but who know. House sales always dip before an election, and we have also had bad weather, so that will be one of the major reason why house sales have slowed down. So the housing crisis is far from solved.  As well as the LVRs, but they are only a temporary measure, and not actually fixing the core problem. It is a supply and demand  problem, but decreasing demand is the quicker way to solve it, than increasing supply. 

 

 

Agree. While sales have slowed and priced have flattened, what I see happening is no more big price rises, but the current prices stay as they are. If so, the housing crisis has stopped getting worse, it will just stay as it is now, bad. The affordability went change unless wages go up a lot, which wont happen, or prices drop a lot, which could. Frustrating that we want to get back to a high housing ownership nation but dint want people to buy them as thats demand!


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  # 1857020 2-Sep-2017 01:39
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tdgeek:

 

mattwnz:

 

 

 

It seems that many are projecting a recession coming, which is never good. But I supposed that comes after a big bull market run. I would far rather things be even, rather than having these booms and busts. The last bust was just after Labour was voted out. If house prices hadn't been allowed to get out of control like they have, then I think we would be in a far better position to weather a recession. I think it is going to hit some people hard this time, as many have got themselves into huge debt. It is largely fueled by greed IMO, but people who have simply wanted a house to live in, are going to get caught up in it. It may not be as bad as some predict, but who know. House sales always dip before an election, and we have also had bad weather, so that will be one of the major reason why house sales have slowed down. So the housing crisis is far from solved.  As well as the LVRs, but they are only a temporary measure, and not actually fixing the core problem. It is a supply and demand  problem, but decreasing demand is the quicker way to solve it, than increasing supply. 

 

 

Agree. While sales have slowed and priced have flattened, what I see happening is no more big price rises, but the current prices stay as they are. If so, the housing crisis has stopped getting worse, it will just stay as it is now, bad. The affordability went change unless wages go up a lot, which wont happen, or prices drop a lot, which could. Frustrating that we want to get back to a high housing ownership nation but dint want people to buy them as thats demand!

 

 

 

 

I think stopping overseas ownership of existing housing stock, like they do in parts of Australasia would help a lot. I think it possibily mayflat line, and inflation will slowly erode prices. It has sort of happened in Wellington up until 2016 when prices rocketed up again.  However as interest rates are still dropping, the housing market could pick up after the election, which wouldn't be good. If you look at the UK or parts of Europe, interest rates are between 1-2%, which potentially means that people could afford to service a far larger mortgage, and thus afford to pay more for a house. The LVRs are slowing people down, because they need a larger deposit, but the government are looking at ways to help people get that deposit with more grants, and allowing people to withdraw more from Kiwisaver. I think it is terrible that they allowed this, as Kiwisaver is supposed to be about saving for your retirement, by investing in f productive companies. Not about getting people into huge debt, and keeping the housing market bubbling away and pushing up house values. I think we need a DTI, to protect people from paying too much relative to incomes,  but the government seem to be totally against that.




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  # 1857058 2-Sep-2017 08:24
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mattwnz:

 

I think stopping overseas ownership of existing housing stock, like they do in parts of Australasia would help a lot. I think it possibily mayflat line, and inflation will slowly erode prices. It has sort of happened in Wellington up until 2016 when prices rocketed up again.  However as interest rates are still dropping, the housing market could pick up after the election, which wouldn't be good. If you look at the UK or parts of Europe, interest rates are between 1-2%, which potentially means that people could afford to service a far larger mortgage, and thus afford to pay more for a house. The LVRs are slowing people down, because they need a larger deposit, but the government are looking at ways to help people get that deposit with more grants, and allowing people to withdraw more from Kiwisaver. I think it is terrible that they allowed this, as Kiwisaver is supposed to be about saving for your retirement, by investing in f productive companies. Not about getting people into huge debt, and keeping the housing market bubbling away and pushing up house values. I think we need a DTI, to protect people from paying too much relative to incomes,  but the government seem to be totally against that.

 

 

Ive always thought that re overseas ownership. Reduce part of the demand. Take an auction. 12 locals bidding, they bid to what they can afford and like about the house. But the 3 rich foreigners outbid them anyway as they can. Then that 500k house that went for 585k, is now a 585k house in the eyes of the losing bidders and buyers in the area, who have free access to recent house sale prices. Totally artificial. OTOH I know many asians who have no money, but parents do, same thing happens. 

 

We want immigration, but perhaps a rule that immigrants cannot buy housing stock. They can build immediately though. Get a very small Govt agency in place to help newcomers on the build journey. New immigrants, great, they provide their home, housing stock unaffected.


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