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  # 1860365 7-Sep-2017 15:19
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networkn:

 

Alternatively, maybe she doesn't want the top job but is doing it anyway, do you think that is any better for NZ?

 

 

If naked ambition for the top job is what you're after, you have an excellent option available to you in Winston Peters.

 

 


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  # 1860394 7-Sep-2017 16:06
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allio:

 

networkn:

 

Alternatively, maybe she doesn't want the top job but is doing it anyway, do you think that is any better for NZ?

 

 

If naked ambition for the top job is what you're after, you have an excellent option available to you in Winston Peters.

 

 

 

 

Twisting my words isn't doing much for your credibility. 

 

If you take a deep breath, I think you'll see the point I am trying to make. 

 

To do a good job (esp long term) you have to first want the job. Also, you need to want it for the right reasons. The two are not mutually inclusive. 

 

Not wanting the job, should exclude you from the job. 

 

 


 
 
 
 




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  # 1860480 7-Sep-2017 18:17
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I'm not at home but just saw the new poll. A bit surprised. I saw an ebb to JA, a flow to BE last debate and was a bit dubious how the 11b hole would go. In his then her favour but I'm a bit shocked

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  # 1860520 7-Sep-2017 19:13
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tdgeek: I'm not at home but just saw the new poll. A bit surprised. I saw an ebb to JA, a flow to BE last debate and was a bit dubious how the 11b hole would go. In his then her favour but I'm a bit shocked

 

It's not really surprising. Labour clearly has the momentum. It also explains why National has gone so negative. They haven't been able to show why their policies are good for New Zealanders so they are resorting to going relentlessly negative. This thread has also gone the same way to be honest, those supporting National can only point to why Labour is bad, not all the good work National is going to do. Being a third term government is hard as inevitably things go wrong and you run out of new ideas.

 

This article is really interesting showing the links to the last 3 governments and how they are going down the same road.

 

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/@politics/2017/09/06/46421/three-terms-and-a-hail-mary

 

 


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  # 1860544 7-Sep-2017 20:17
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I was watching the Stuff debate and had one observation. When English talks in an aspirational way he is genuinely engaging. When he's negative he's not. 

 

I really think that Joyce has done him a gross disservice in this election. He's basically run on the platform of "We're not Labour". Nationals complacency has really caught up with them. Now that Labour have a message that works National look old and tired.

 

 




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  # 1860546 7-Sep-2017 20:20
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Handle9:

 

tdgeek: I'm not at home but just saw the new poll. A bit surprised. I saw an ebb to JA, a flow to BE last debate and was a bit dubious how the 11b hole would go. In his then her favour but I'm a bit shocked

 

It's not really surprising. Labour clearly has the momentum. It also explains why National has gone so negative. They haven't been able to show why their policies are good for New Zealanders so they are resorting to going relentlessly negative. This thread has also gone the same way to be honest, those supporting National can only point to why Labour is bad, not all the good work National is going to do. Being a third term government is hard as inevitably things go wrong and you run out of new ideas.

 

This article is really interesting showing the links to the last 3 governments and how they are going down the same road.

 

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/@politics/2017/09/06/46421/three-terms-and-a-hail-mary

 

 

 

 

Read this today. I agree. If I was National PR, I would use JA lack of experience as my target. But, Joyce failed. he could have said, I am really concerned that she has little experience, it really bothers me. We are a 3 term Govt and vulnerable, but it really bothers me. Rinse and repeat daily. The public perception is wow, yes, it is a worry, a risk. But, as he, and others of both parties have done, they got dirty. The masses see the bitchiness, and people dont like that. Factor in, that JA comes across (more perception) as transparent, genuine and honest. That perceives a bigger gap between "nice and honest" and "experienced" aka making up stuff to denigrate the other. 

 

An election should be about the qualities and policies, but while psychology is always there, this time round it will bite the Nats. They should have seen JA as nice, honest and transparent (as she says every 8th word), and taken her on, by being honest, caring and worried. Then the masses who will know National and trust them, will trust their words. But if they perceive dirty tactics, they will vote accordingly.

 

Im not saying this as a supporter of either, this is my view from the fence. These threads contain A vs B, but it helps to look at it with no rose coloured glasses on. 

 

Should Labour win, IMHO, it will be due to National losing, tactics wise. Thats a democratic pity. 




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  # 1860548 7-Sep-2017 20:31
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Handle9:

 

I was watching the Stuff debate and had one observation. When English talks in an aspirational way he is genuinely engaging. When he's negative he's not. 

 

I really think that Joyce has done him a gross disservice in this election. He's basically run on the platform of "We're not Labour". Nationals complacency has really caught up with them. Now that Labour have a message that works National look old and tired.

 

 

 

 

I didn't see the Stuff debate, just replied to your other post.

 

Your first sentence says it all, and aligns with my psychological reply. he does look good. Confident, I know it all (in a good way). But when he is the opposite, it doesn't look good, it looks a bit desperate. 

 

A 3 term Party is up against it, bigly. But with Little in Labour they would win, no question. JA has her new thing going on, but they made the mistake of not being true to themselves and backing their credibility (which they clearly have) but have gone down the track of cutting down a younger female. Im not saying that as feminist, but it exaggerates the bullying. Analogy. School, level 9, a bully. Or Im in level 9, a girl, the bully is level 12 a boy. Thats what it looks like. People dont like that. 

 

I felt early that JA had the edge. Second debate she got better, but Bill got more better. He gained. JA as days goes by, goes from new and fresh to not as new not as fresh, and we look to what we trust, good old boring but rock solid Bill. The 11B issue has put them on the back foot I feel. 


 
 
 
 


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  # 1860557 7-Sep-2017 20:47
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Not sure what all the hate on Joyce is about.  IMO he's one of the more competent pragmatic and hard-working of the Nat's cabinet.

 

Politics is a funny business.  So much negativity about Labour's lack of depth, but I never liked BillE, then there's the Paula, Judith, Gerry, Jonathan, and Nick show.

 

There's depth there all right - "plumbing it".




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  # 1860558 7-Sep-2017 20:58
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Fred99:

 

Not sure what all the hate on Joyce is about.  IMO he's one of the more competent pragmatic and hard-working of the Nat's cabinet.

 

Politics is a funny business.  So much negativity about Labour's lack of depth, but I never liked BillE, then there's the Paula, Judith, Gerry, Jonathan, and Nick show.

 

There's depth there all right - "plumbing it".

 

 

Its a funny business alright. I am sure we can all find something  BAD about each and every one. But the bottom line is, they pretty much all are running our country. And while some have had the odd gaffe or naughty bit going on, most off them can earn more and do less hours in the private sector, but they arent.

 

They deserve that credit irregardless of our chosen poison. 


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  # 1860566 7-Sep-2017 21:08
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I think what we are seeing is the voters now responding to some of the mischievous underhand don't tell the truth actions over the past period of time. People are saying enough is enough. But labour still has the problem of getting people to the polls.  If one looks back low poll turnouts always cause problems for the left. So there call now in my opinion is "Go Out and Vote"


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  # 1860570 7-Sep-2017 21:13
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Fred99:

Not sure what all the hate on Joyce is about.  IMO he's one of the more competent pragmatic and hard-working of the Nat's cabinet.




I agree that he's amoung Nationals most effective ministers but he's also their campaign manager. The strategy is his and don't forget he was the campaign manager responsible for Don Brashs campaign. He's very competent but I'm not sure if he has anything resembling a soul.

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  # 1860575 7-Sep-2017 21:33
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Handle9:
Fred99:

 

Not sure what all the hate on Joyce is about.  IMO he's one of the more competent pragmatic and hard-working of the Nat's cabinet.

 

 

 



I agree that he's amoung Nationals most effective ministers but he's also their campaign manager. The strategy is his and don't forget he was the campaign manager responsible for Don Brashs campaign. He's very competent but I'm not sure if he has anything resembling a soul.

 

I'm not sure what strategy could have worked for National - so Joyce held a poisoned chalice.

 

Bill should have never accepted PM position.  He did what he did as finance minister under Key quite well, but should have called it quits when the going was still good.

 

 


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  # 1860625 8-Sep-2017 02:38
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You can't blame Bill for wanting to be PM. Lots of people do. Except Jacinda.

 

I have been thinking about networkn's comments on this. It is one of the excuses he dishes up for not taking her seriously as a potential leader. She said she didn't want to be leader. Then she accepted the role. Apparently this is supposed to make her inconsistent, or dishonest, or reluctant, or something. 

 

When asked about her change of mind, this is what she said: “But I’m also a person who takes my responsibilities really seriously, so when the party asked me to do this role, I just couldn’t say no."

 

In other words, she saw it as her duty even though it wasn't her preference. Networkn seems to think this disqualifies her as leader, because her heart isn't really in it.

 

My dad served on a ship in WWII. He saw action. He absolutely hated the war and everything about it. He couldn't wait for it to be over. But while it was going on, he had a duty to do and he did it to the best of his ability. He did it so well that he got a medal for it. The fact that he desperately did not want to be there did not in any way impinge on his performance. I think Jacinda Ardern is like that. She has assumed a duty, and she will carry it out to the absolute best of her ability. This comes across in her debate performances. She may not have wanted to be leader, but as long as she is, she is going to be the best damned leader she can. I say good on her.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 




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  # 1860638 8-Sep-2017 07:18
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Fred99:

 

Handle9:
Fred99:

 

Not sure what all the hate on Joyce is about.  IMO he's one of the more competent pragmatic and hard-working of the Nat's cabinet.

 

 

 



I agree that he's amoung Nationals most effective ministers but he's also their campaign manager. The strategy is his and don't forget he was the campaign manager responsible for Don Brashs campaign. He's very competent but I'm not sure if he has anything resembling a soul.

 

I'm not sure what strategy could have worked for National - so Joyce held a poisoned chalice.

 

Bill should have never accepted PM position.  He did what he did as finance minister under Key quite well, but should have called it quits when the going was still good.

 

 

 

 

He should have not used the 11B smear campaign which was known to be false. Busted. The message should have been quiet, genuine and concerning about her economic experience, hammer that continually, mud sticks. But the 11B issue backfired, caught out. People dont like that


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  # 1860639 8-Sep-2017 07:19
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tdgeek:

 

He should have not used the 11B smear campaign which was known to be false. Busted. The message should have been quiet, genuine and concerning about her economic experience, hammer that continually, mud sticks. But the 11B issue backfired, caught out. People dont like that

 

 

"Quiet and genuine" from a politician that is on the (perceived) losing side?

 

Nope, not happening.





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