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  # 1848635 18-Aug-2017 16:15
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Fred99:

 

MikeB4:

 

I love the way the uniformed believe that people are poor or on welfare by choice.  

 

 

I assume that should have been uninformed :-)

 

I agree - but in my opinion it's even more complex.

 

The meritocratic system we have rewards success - I have no problem with that.

 

Unfortunately, it also results in the belief - something well and truly held by those who haven't achieved success - that they are not valued.

 

Now we have people seriously suggesting that what's needed is to give them a good kick up the backside - and hand out tax cuts to the most successful.

 

 

 

 

innocent well spotted Sir and now corrected.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


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  # 1848642 18-Aug-2017 16:33
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MikeB4:

 

Fred99:

 

MikeB4:

 

I love the way the uniformed believe that people are poor or on welfare by choice.  

 

 

I assume that should have been uninformed :-)

 

I agree - but in my opinion it's even more complex.

 

The meritocratic system we have rewards success - I have no problem with that.

 

Unfortunately, it also results in the belief - something well and truly held by those who haven't achieved success - that they are not valued.

 

Now we have people seriously suggesting that what's needed is to give them a good kick up the backside - and hand out tax cuts to the most successful.

 

 

 

 

innocent well spotted Sir and now corrected.

 

 

Whew. The image of some of those around here - riding high horses, carrying whips - and also wearing uniforms - it was just too much for me to bear.


 
 
 
 


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  # 1848691 18-Aug-2017 19:07
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Rikkitic:

 

Maybe I will vote for Labour just to annoy the frothing Right.

 

 

 

 

Me too, as he is obsessed with his tax cuts, as NZ over taxes everything, as we have so much share revenue. Now thats the Utopia he wants.


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  # 1848694 18-Aug-2017 19:15
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Wiggum:

 

Rikkitic:

 

Maybe I will vote for Labour just to annoy the frothing Right.

 

 

LOL As if you would ever have voted for any party on the right anyway! Its your vote, you entitled to vote for whoever you want, I will not get annoyed by it.

 

What I do know though, is a vote for the left is a vote for $2118pa of less household income in our household. So its an easy decision for me. If you have money to throw away on the 1st of April then go on and give your vote to Labour tongue-out

 

 

Yes, those tax cuts are a huge deal for you. So, its basically about you, and not the country?

 

Funny thing is, its election year, tax cuts. Its also another year of AKL road congestion that has not been dealt with, but hey, there has been real progress, and hey, its election year. Dont worry about the previous years when its been left to rot, but hey, the books look steady.

 

I am a swing voter. I dont care if I get taxed more, as long as the Govt of the day needs it to run our country. I am quite happy to have tax cuts if the Govt of our day has a surplus AND an ongoing surplus AFTER allowing for the near future. 

 

I dont need or want free tax cuts to buy my vote, although I do accept that some do.


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  # 1848696 18-Aug-2017 19:17
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Wiggum:

 

Rikkitic:

 

Maybe you should consider offering to foster. Those homes have to come from somewhere and you might be able to help some of those unfortunate kids. I think they would even give you some of your hard-earned taxes back in exchange.

 

 

 

 

It is my understanding that there are is desperate shortage of foster homes in NZ. (Feel free to correct me if I am wrong) Us New Zealanders are really a generous bunch.

 

You have quiet conveniently dodged some of my other questions.

 

 

Come on. You are talking about dodging??? You get asked and you give s politician answer. Three paragraphs of words, but no answer. Or, "I don't buy it" (Which I have borrowed from you)


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  # 1848698 18-Aug-2017 19:21
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mrfte:

 

Rikkitic:

 

What would those be? You seem to think you can fix social issues by punishing people. I think the way to fix them is by changing people. You don't change people though punishment. You do it through education and by giving them better options. It is a long-term process that requires patience. You start with the kids.

 

 

Life is not fair. There will always be winners and losers. No one is going to sit and hold your hand explaining why you were in the wrong. Adults know when they're in the wrong and shy from being responsible anyways because it's too much effort and it's easier to take chances - because, most often it's someone else paying the price for it. We can't keep babying people through adult life. Most lessons in responsibility are usually learnt via a swift kick up the rear.

 

 

Except some have little or no choice. Thats not my problem. I am lucky, I can do whatever I like, wherever I like, with whoever I like. BUT, I care about those that want to have choices, but don't. Thats not a socialist or cradle to the grave concern, its a base concern for others.  


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  # 1848699 18-Aug-2017 19:23
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Fred99:

 

mrfte:

 

Rikkitic:

 

What would those be? You seem to think you can fix social issues by punishing people. I think the way to fix them is by changing people. You don't change people though punishment. You do it through education and by giving them better options. It is a long-term process that requires patience. You start with the kids.

 

 

Life is not fair. There will always be winners and losers. No one is going to sit and hold your hand explaining why you were in the wrong. Adults know when they're in the wrong and shy from being responsible anyways because it's too much effort and it's easier to take chances - because, most often it's someone else paying the price for it. We can't keep babying people through adult life. Most lessons in responsibility are usually learnt via a swift kick up the rear.

 

 

That's a very negative and defeatist world view.

 

Based no doubt on the assumption that unless there's someone standing with a whip, some significant number of people wake up in the morning thinking about how they're going to do a lousy days work / not look after their kids / try to be as dumb as possible.  I don't believe people are born like that - even if some small percentage of people learn to behave like that.

 

I wonder what happened to:

 

"All Kiwis want is someone to love, somewhere to live, somewhere to work, and something to hope for."

 

 

 

 

Best post ever. Some have a very basic need as Fred says, and try. For some its tough, for others, is it the Burgundy Porsche or the Gunmetal Grey. Or the $2118 tax cut. 


 
 
 
 


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  # 1848700 18-Aug-2017 19:27
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Wiggum:

 

Fred99:

 

 

 

"All Kiwis want is someone to love, somewhere to live, somewhere to work, and something to hope for."

 

 

And money can't buy any of that. But hey, raise taxes and try anyway.

 

 

If the Govt income needed that Id raise taxes, and also give you your richly derived $2118 tax cut.

 

Unknown to you VERY clearly, is that we all need income. Mine is my salary, the Govt is taxes. Maybe we could rename taxes to CGA, Contribution to the Government Accounts. I am unsure what you do when your income does not meet the needs.  


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  # 1848711 18-Aug-2017 19:35
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Wiggum:

 

Fred99:

 

 

 

NZ seems to be an aspirational vacuum for many people.  If correcting that means returning to a more egalitarian society, and achieving that requires some wealth sharing, then so be it.

 

 

Thats just your view, and opinion. My view is that its not broken, therefore no reason to try and fix it.

 

You can't create an equal/free society by wealth sharing. Society is based on a person's right to work, earn an income, and keep the fruits of their hard earned work. We all have this right. If I create wealth that belongs to me, no government should have the right to take it away and give it to somebody else. Wealth sharing will just coddle the poor and reinforce the tendency for many people to just continue to be happy to live on welfare.

 

An equal society is a society where we are all given an equal chance to create our own wealth. Its should have nothing to do with how much wealth certain people have.

 

 

 

 

You have undone yourself.

 

You do have the right to earn your wealth and have no one take it away from you, I agree. Who will pay to run this country? Roads, power, health, and 48 other things. The Govt manages that, and you pay your share, its called tax. So it's a two day street here its not JUST you, you dont build the road outside your house, or the motorway that you drive to the workplace to earn your salary. There are many costs that' arent your concern = taxes. You want it all, and you dont want to pay for it all, thread closed.




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  # 1849249 20-Aug-2017 15:11
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tdgeek:

 

Rikkitic:

 

Maybe I will vote for Labour just to annoy the frothing Right.

 

 

Me too, as he is obsessed with his tax cuts, as NZ over taxes everything, as we have so much share revenue. Now thats the Utopia he wants.

 

 

WOW @tdgeek 7 posts in a row, and nothing much to show for it. If anybody here is obsessed I think its you. How about we rather work at creating more of that "share revenue" you mention? I'm sure most of us here will agree that the current government does a lot of unnecessary spending. Therefore don't you think that the funds for these awesome sounding policies should come from that unnecessary spending first? Instead of just doing the easy thing, and raise taxes!

 

Higher taxes hamper our economic growth, this means that there will actually be less wealth to distribute. A very high taxed/equal society will either mean everyone prospers, and everyone has a lot of money. Or it means nobody will prosper and everyone has a little bit of money. In a country like NZ where there really is not a huge amount of wealth/cash, if that wealth is distributed equally to everyone, and the economy is not grown, or ends up flat, sure the richer members of our society will end up losing their quality of life to distribute it to our poor. But since there is not really a lot of wealth in the first place, everyone will be sinking instead off prospering.

 

tdgeek:

 

Yes, those tax cuts are a huge deal for you. So, its basically about you, and not the country?

 

Funny thing is, its election year, tax cuts. Its also another year of AKL road congestion that has not been dealt with, but hey, there has been real progress, and hey, its election year. Dont worry about the previous years when its been left to rot, but hey, the books look steady.

 

I am a swing voter. I dont care if I get taxed more, as long as the Govt of the day needs it to run our country. I am quite happy to have tax cuts if the Govt of our day has a surplus AND an ongoing surplus AFTER allowing for the near future. 

 

I dont need or want free tax cuts to buy my vote, although I do accept that some do.

 

 

I'm quiet happy as where taxes are at the moment. They probably in about the right place to say the least. Can possibly come down a bit though IMO. Nice though that we will be getting a tax cut on the 1st April. At least we moving in the right direction, taxes comming down/growing the economy instead of taxes going up/slowing the economy.

 

tdgeek:

 

I am lucky, I can do whatever I like, wherever I like, with whoever I like. BUT, I care about those that want to have choices, but don't. Thats not a socialist or cradle to the grave concern, its a base concern for others.  

 

 

If you care so much for others, then I hope you are already giving to charities etc. We don't need to pay more taxes to help others. And by the way, charity starts in one's own home, and with ones own immediate family. It does not start with more taxes, and jumping onto the socialist bandwagon. Quiet an assumption to make, that because I am against raising taxes some more, I don't care about others? I don't see how the two relate. maybe you can explain.

 

tdgeek:

 

If the Govt income needed that Id raise taxes, and also give you your richly derived $2118 tax cut.

 

Unknown to you VERY clearly, is that we all need income. Mine is my salary, the Govt is taxes. Maybe we could rename taxes to CGA, Contribution to the Government Accounts. I am unsure what you do when your income does not meet the needs.  

 

 

So every time the government needs some income, you quiet happy for them to raise taxes then? Tell me. At what point are taxes too high? Are you happy to pay 100% tax? Or would you rather have a competent government that builds on the economy, and increases their income that way. The problem with labour is that they currently have no propositions as to how they are going to grow the economy. Its all about more taxes, and even charging for water!

 

tdgeek:

 

You have undone yourself.

 

You do have the right to earn your wealth and have no one take it away from you, I agree. Who will pay to run this country? Roads, power, health, and 48 other things. The Govt manages that, and you pay your share, its called tax. So it's a two day street here its not JUST you, you dont build the road outside your house, or the motorway that you drive to the workplace to earn your salary. There are many costs that' arent your concern = taxes. You want it all, and you dont want to pay for it all, thread closed.

 

 

Not once have I suggested we don't have tax. Nice straw man none the less. I have stated it already, and I will state it again. I am quiet happy to see my taxes at work, creating jobs etc. Building on our infrastructure, and growing our economy.

 

By the way, $6354 ($2118 x 3 years) is a lot of money don't you think? You seem to make out that its not a lot at all. Just our household, putting that amount of money back into the NZ economy over the next 3 years will be doing more good than increased taxes ever could. At least if it comes back to us it goes back into the economy, not more unnecessary government spending. As charity starts at home, it could even go to a family member that may really need it, or help payoff some student debt.


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  # 1849380 20-Aug-2017 20:09
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Wiggum:

 

 

 

WOW @tdgeek 7 posts in a row, and nothing much to show for it. If anybody here is obsessed I think its you.

 

 

Some of us have things to do, so very sorry if I come home from expanding my own wealth and catching up on posts is a problem for you.

 

The WOW @tdgeek doesn't really do it though, its a bit childish. Embarking on an adult conversation where if I am right or if I am wrong is not the be all and and all, is more adult. Thats called discussion, but you can also google that




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  # 1849409 20-Aug-2017 20:14
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tdgeek:

 

Wiggum:

 

 

 

WOW @tdgeek 7 posts in a row, and nothing much to show for it. If anybody here is obsessed I think its you.

 

 

Some of us have things to do, so very sorry if I come home from expanding my own wealth and catching up on posts is a problem for you.

 

The WOW @tdgeek doesn't really do it though, its a bit childish. Embarking on an adult conversation where if I am right or if I am wrong is not the be all and and all, is more adult. Thats called discussion, but you can also google that

 

 

I don't buy it.


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  # 1849413 20-Aug-2017 20:20
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Wiggum:

 

I'm sure most of us here will agree that the current government does a lot of unnecessary spending. Therefore don't you think that the funds for these awesome sounding policies should come from that unnecessary spending first? Instead of just doing the easy thing, and raise taxes!

 

Im unsure who the "most of us will agree".

 

The current Govt, whom I almost always vote for, does not do any "unnecessary spending" If you knew anything about the last 9 years you would know that the Govt provides security is reliabilty on economics. They do this by withholding spending, not "unnecessary spending". Health, housing, roads, just as a start. Its election year, tax cuts, now we have 1.4Bill on Dunners hospital, 10.6 Bill on roads. Funny that. You would think that there is so much money spare. If there was, we would have tax cuts (as the tax gathered is surplus to requirements) as the roads, health and so on and so on is already up to date.

 

This is basic math. Very very little different from the average household. Assets/Liabilities, and Income/Expenditure. Granted, most households dont need to deal with foreign trade deficits or surpluses, that often.


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  # 1849417 20-Aug-2017 20:25
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Wiggum:

 

Higher taxes hamper our economic growth, this means that there will actually be less wealth to distribute.

 

You really still dont get it.

 

Your salary is your income. Tax is the Govt income. Both are used to meet expenditure. (asset purchases and expenses). Should the Govt have enough income, it should not tax more, allowing a 100% distribution back to the populous. Thats is as fair as it gets. (Assuming that the spending is not wasteful and unnecessary)


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  # 1849425 20-Aug-2017 20:30
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Wiggum:

 

 

 

I'm quiet happy as where taxes are at the moment. They probably in about the right place to say the least. Can possibly come down a bit though IMO. Nice though that we will be getting a tax cut on the 1st April. At least we moving in the right direction, taxes comming down/growing the economy instead of taxes going up/slowing the economy.

 

 

 

 

I know you are as you just want the dollars. If the Govt tax take after meeting all thats needed leaves room for tax cuts, I am as keen as you. Actually no one is probably as keen as you. Taxes can come down, no question. When that income is reduced, who picks up that tab? Maybe we reduce spending on [insert here]

 

We are moving in the right direction, less taxes would the great. We will just pay them in another way. I could expand but its plain obvious


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