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1199 posts

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  #1861155 9-Sep-2017 08:50
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MikeB4: You are assuming that those on Welfare are doing it by choice, a mistake a lot of people make.

 

It makes economic sense in many cases to be on welfare. Less sense to work.

 

https://services.workandincome.govt.nz/cos/application.do

 

For interests sake I went online to check if I could get a payout, I filled in the form based as follows:

 

- Single Mum (Not working)

 

- 2 Kids, 1 under 5, 1 under 13

 

- Currently renting

 

Turns out I can get

 

- A weekly payment which helps me with one or more dependent children.

 

- A weekly payment which helps people with their rent, board or the cost of owning a home.

 

- A weekly payment which helps someone who can''t meet their essential living costs from what they earn or from other sources.

 

Why on earth should the single mum in the above example go and find work?That will be silly!

 

Childcare alone is expensive in NZ, and a minimum wage will probably not even pay for that. I disagree with your statement that many people are not doing it by choice. Its not just a choice, its a good choice to make.

 

It amazes me sometimes when I dont go into work, and the amount of families I see here spending time together in parks etc during work hours. Where are they getting the money if they not working?, plus it always seems to be the same crowd of people. Not badly dressed, no shortage of food (obvious reasons). Its the same bunch that normally ignore the no smoking policy in parks etc.. Good life, and much better than some of us that are actually trying to make an honest living - working!

 

 

 

 




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  #1861160 9-Sep-2017 09:16
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tdgeek:

 

[Thats primarily the point. Targeting the causers. Whether you charge them via a tax or an invoice makes no difference, they pay.

 

 

Except you are making everybody else pay.

 

Please explain why you think its fair that every New Zealander pays to cleanup the mess of some? Thats just going to create a society of where its OK to mess and not clean up. I pay my taxes, therefore I pay to have that rubbish thrown from my car window picked up.

 

We need to go hard on those that are messing things up. Not make it everyones problem. National is partially to blame here simply because they have not gone hard enough on these industries. Unfortunately the labour/greens policies to cleanup (and make every new zealander pay for it), is not a solution either, and certainly not a solution that I will be willing to contribute towards. Ambulance at the bottom of the cliff once again.

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  #1861251 9-Sep-2017 12:45
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Wiggum:

 

tdgeek:

 

[Thats primarily the point. Targeting the causers. Whether you charge them via a tax or an invoice makes no difference, they pay.

 

 

Except you are making everybody else pay.

 

Please explain why you think its fair that every New Zealander pays to cleanup the mess of some? Thats just going to create a society of where its OK to mess and not clean up. I pay my taxes, therefore I pay to have that rubbish thrown from my car window picked up.

 

We need to go hard on those that are messing things up. Not make it everyones problem. National is partially to blame here simply because they have not gone hard enough on these industries. Unfortunately the labour/greens policies to cleanup (and make every new zealander pay for it), is not a solution either, and certainly not a solution that I will be willing to contribute towards. Ambulance at the bottom of the cliff once again.

 

 

 

 

The cost of cleaning up the waterways will be levied against those commercial users who are messing them up. These charges will not be levied directly at households or councils. 





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


1643 posts

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  #1861280 9-Sep-2017 14:00
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Wiggum:

 

 

 

Except you are making everybody else pay.

 

Please explain why you think its fair that every New Zealander pays to cleanup the mess of some? Thats just going to create a society of where its OK to mess and not clean up. I pay my taxes, therefore I pay to have that rubbish thrown from my car window picked up.

 

 

 

Just curiously, what are you views on people who are fit and able to work, but refuse to? Who should pick up after them? 




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  #1861282 9-Sep-2017 14:16
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GV27:

 

 

 

Just curiously, what are you views on people who are fit and able to work, but refuse to? Who should pick up after them? 

 

 

Forced community service to do some cleanups. (They not working so they should have plenty of time on their hands).

 

 


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  #1861558 9-Sep-2017 21:05
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Wiggum:

 

tdgeek:

 

[Thats primarily the point. Targeting the causers. Whether you charge them via a tax or an invoice makes no difference, they pay.

 

 

Except you are making everybody else pay.

 

Please explain why you think its fair that every New Zealander pays to cleanup the mess of some? Thats just going to create a society of where its OK to mess and not clean up. I pay my taxes, therefore I pay to have that rubbish thrown from my car window picked up.

 

We need to go hard on those that are messing things up. Not make it everyones problem. National is partially to blame here simply because they have not gone hard enough on these industries. Unfortunately the labour/greens policies to cleanup (and make every new zealander pay for it), is not a solution either, and certainly not a solution that I will be willing to contribute towards. Ambulance at the bottom of the cliff once again.

 

 

 

 

Ask Bill

 

He wants to pay for the cleanup, which is you, me and all taxpayers paying. Instead of those who caused it. But you already know that, so why ask?




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  #1861568 9-Sep-2017 21:10
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tdgeek:

 

 

 

He wants to pay for the cleanup, which is you, me and all taxpayers paying. Instead of those who caused it. But you already know that, so why ask?

 

 

He is not asking for more taxes to do it.


 
 
 
 


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  #1861569 9-Sep-2017 21:10
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Wiggum:

 

GV27:

 

 

 

Just curiously, what are you views on people who are fit and able to work, but refuse to? Who should pick up after them? 

 

 

Forced community service to do some cleanups. (They not working so they should have plenty of time on their hands).

 

 

 

 

I recall that has been proposed. Cant recall who but it was before this lolly scramble, here is some money election campaign


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  #1861584 9-Sep-2017 21:39
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Wiggum:

 

tdgeek:

 

 

 

He wants to pay for the cleanup, which is you, me and all taxpayers paying. Instead of those who caused it. But you already know that, so why ask?

 

 

He is not asking for more taxes to do it.

 

 

More taxes from you? Are you a wine grower or farmer or do you export NZ water to Asia? If not, you arent paying the water tax.

 

You put yourself into a hole, again. Bill isn't asking for a tax. So the costs for water cleanup have to come from existing tax income, which suits you. You and I have already paid that. What is his figure? No figure? So its not budgeted for? Im not sure, but you will know. If not budgeted for, Bill can A) tax, B) forego other spending such as boring Health, or C) delay. C and D have already happened.

 

But the short story is, you dont want taxes. Did you watch the debate? Can you list the 18 taxes that were quoted that National added or increased? Taxes are not new. But you do not want to pay them, neither do I, but one of us knows that Govt income is not a bottomless pit.  As per your previous posts, lets just cut wasted Govt spending, or just get Govt to grow the economy. Thats easy and quick.


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  #1861645 10-Sep-2017 07:22
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Here's a list of National taxes (taken mostly from Labour's web site from 2014):

GST increase from 12.5% to 15% (after saying they wouldn't)
GST on digital purchases
Increased taxes on KiwiSaver (employer contributions)
Compulsory student loan payment increase from 10% to 12%
Increased tertiary fees
The 2012 ‘Paperboy’ tax in which kid's part time job earnings are not exempt
Civil Aviation Authority fees rise
Additional fuel tax increase of 9 cents with annual CPI increases locked in for perpetuity
Road User Charges increased
New annual student loan fees introduced
Massive unnecessary ACC levy increases
Prescription fees increased by 66%
New online company filing fees imposed on businesses
Creeping expansion of the scope of Fringe Benefit Taxes - National tried to tax car parks and plain-clothes police uniforms
Lowering of Working for Families abatement threshold and increasing the abatement rate, taking money out of the pockets of families
Imposing a $900 Family Court fee



1199 posts

Uber Geek
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  #1861654 10-Sep-2017 08:00
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tdgeek:

 

 

 

More taxes from you? Are you a wine grower or farmer or do you export NZ water to Asia? If not, you arent paying the water tax.

 

 

 

 

So please explain why you believe those tax costs will not hit the consumer? The consumer will pay them in the end.

 

The 1st April 2018 Tax cut will not happen under Labour. Thats a Tax Increase, it is needed to deliver on labours promises. Then there is all the other proposed new taxes which includes Capital Gains Tax, Land Tax and even tourism taxes which will also hit many of us.

 

Bottom line is that labours tax policies all very confusing, nobody really knows whats going on. Every time Jacinda opens her mouth on the subject she just sows more confusion.


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  #1861658 10-Sep-2017 08:17
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Wiggum:

 

tdgeek:

 

 

 

More taxes from you? Are you a wine grower or farmer or do you export NZ water to Asia? If not, you arent paying the water tax.

 

 

 

 

So please explain why you believe those tax costs will not hit the consumer? The consumer will pay them in the end.

 

The 1st April 2018 Tax cut will not happen under Labour. Thats a Tax Increase, it is needed to deliver on labours promises. Then there is all the other proposed new taxes which includes Capital Gains Tax, Land Tax and even tourism taxes which will also hit many of us.

 

Bottom line is that labours tax policies all very confusing, nobody really knows whats going on. Every time Jacinda opens her mouth on the subject she just sows more confusion.

 

 

The wine bottle will cost a few cents more, not the $75 scaremongering guess by a National  MP tweet. The farmers who get taxed, wont be much hit for NZ, unlike some who want them fixed hundreds of thousands or jailed (yes, someone said that) and most bottles water goes overseas. Scare mongering over the not so simple matter of NZ is not green

 

Tax cuts we cant afford, but its an election year bribe, so its not really an increase it should not have been offered in the first place. CGT is not a new tax, pay more attention. Its been extended, unless your happy for speculators to push up prices. Unless your speculating on short term property gains you also wont be paying that. If you are, then you are merely now paying tax on your business. Tourism tax. How will you be paying that? I assume you live here and are not s tourist. Right now, you pay that tax by way of there is a shortfall of funds to upkeep many facilities, so the tourist will pay that so you and I dont

 

It is correct there is confusion that we wont get clarity on until the working group puts forward options. But the polls dont show that as a large concern, there are clearly other more pressing concerns. Whats your take on the long list of National tax increases that was posted above?


1643 posts

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  #1861660 10-Sep-2017 08:25
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tdgeek:

Wiggum:


tdgeek:


 


More taxes from you? Are you a wine grower or farmer or do you export NZ water to Asia? If not, you arent paying the water tax.


 



So please explain why you believe those tax costs will not hit the consumer? The consumer will pay them in the end.


The 1st April 2018 Tax cut will not happen under Labour. Thats a Tax Increase, it is needed to deliver on labours promises. Then there is all the other proposed new taxes which includes Capital Gains Tax, Land Tax and even tourism taxes which will also hit many of us.


Bottom line is that labours tax policies all very confusing, nobody really knows whats going on. Every time Jacinda opens her mouth on the subject she just sows more confusion.



The wine bottle will cost a few cents more, not the $75 scaremongering guess by a National  MP tweet. The farmers who get taxed, wont be much hit for NZ, unlike some who want them fixed hundreds of thousands or jailed (yes, someone said that) and most bottles water goes overseas. Scare mongering over the not so simple matter of NZ is not green


Tax cuts we cant afford, but its an election year bribe, so its not really an increase it should not have been offered in the first place. CGT is not a new tax, pay more attention. Its been extended, unless your happy for speculators to push up prices. Unless your speculating on short term property gains you also wont be paying that. If you are, then you are merely now paying tax on your business. Tourism tax. How will you be paying that? I assume you live here and are not s tourist. Right now, you pay that tax by way of there is a shortfall of funds to upkeep many facilities, so the tourist will pay that so you and I dont


It is correct there is confusion that we wont get clarity on until the working group puts forward options. But the polls dont show that as a large concern, there are clearly other more pressing concerns. Whats your take on the long list of National tax increases that was posted above?



The tax cuts are legislated. Removing them is a tax increase.

The brightline tax has an exemption for inheritance. Labour's CGT does not.

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  #1861662 10-Sep-2017 08:33
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Capital gains tax and land tax, if they decide to have one, won't be on the family home though. The water tax has been costed out to be a cent or two on a bottle of wine. I don't know what it might mean for other prices, I haven't looked around for that info. or I can't remember off the top of my head. If someone finds out maybe they could post it. Dairy goods prices especially. Though we already pay export prices. A block of butter in my town is now about $5.30

The Al Jazeera videos on water degradation in NZ due to irrigation for dairying in unsuitable locations makes a good point though. A tax on water use may convince some to relocate or de-intensify.

We can't keep abusing the environment this way for short term gains.

Edit: as for tourism tax, better that than a rates increase. My little town is having trouble coping with the influx, especially of freedom campers.

Edit two:
Food price rises at 2c/cubic metre

1.5 kg apples $4.99 - no rise

4kg potatoes $9.99 - no rise

1.5kg onions $2.79 - no rise

1.5 kg carrots $2.79 - no rise

Bottle of wine $15.01 - rises 2 cents

Loaf of bread $3.50 - rises 3 cents

Milk 2 litres $3.95 - no rise

Cheese 1 kg $8.02 - 2 cent rise

Ice-cream 2 litre $12.07 - 5 cents rise

(Source: IrrigationNZ)

- Stuff https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/95881293/food-prices-will-not-rise-under-labours-water-charge-after-details-released

19130 posts

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  #1861667 10-Sep-2017 08:46
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GV27:
tdgeek:

 

Wiggum:

 

 

 

tdgeek:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

More taxes from you? Are you a wine grower or farmer or do you export NZ water to Asia? If not, you arent paying the water tax.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So please explain why you believe those tax costs will not hit the consumer? The consumer will pay them in the end.

 

 

 

The 1st April 2018 Tax cut will not happen under Labour. Thats a Tax Increase, it is needed to deliver on labours promises. Then there is all the other proposed new taxes which includes Capital Gains Tax, Land Tax and even tourism taxes which will also hit many of us.

 

 

 

Bottom line is that labours tax policies all very confusing, nobody really knows whats going on. Every time Jacinda opens her mouth on the subject she just sows more confusion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The wine bottle will cost a few cents more, not the $75 scaremongering guess by a National  MP tweet. The farmers who get taxed, wont be much hit for NZ, unlike some who want them fixed hundreds of thousands or jailed (yes, someone said that) and most bottles water goes overseas. Scare mongering over the not so simple matter of NZ is not green

 

 

 

Tax cuts we cant afford, but its an election year bribe, so its not really an increase it should not have been offered in the first place. CGT is not a new tax, pay more attention. Its been extended, unless your happy for speculators to push up prices. Unless your speculating on short term property gains you also wont be paying that. If you are, then you are merely now paying tax on your business. Tourism tax. How will you be paying that? I assume you live here and are not s tourist. Right now, you pay that tax by way of there is a shortfall of funds to upkeep many facilities, so the tourist will pay that so you and I dont

 

 

 

It is correct there is confusion that we wont get clarity on until the working group puts forward options. But the polls dont show that as a large concern, there are clearly other more pressing concerns. Whats your take on the long list of National tax increases that was posted above?

 



The tax cuts are legislated. Removing them is a tax increase.

The brightline tax has an exemption for inheritance. Labour's CGT does not.

 

I dont recall saying removing the tax cuts is not an increase. Why did National offer tac cuts to coincide with an election? Are we that rich that is share cash, not needed for anything? Should that have been offered at all?

 

Yes, Labours differs. You can argue both ways whether that is a good or bad idea. All of their policies differ to National, and vice versa. The implication is that Labour wants to tax tax and tax. What about Nationals number of tax increases? No one wants to discuss that. Tax in the Govts source of income, it doesnt matter who is in power, if they need it, they tax it. All of these National and Labour taxes arent levelled at everyone, Income Tax does that. If you feel that many taxes should be removed, thats a fair comment. You then need to justify when the books are in deficit, and we borrow, and we have an ever increasing interest charge. 


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