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9014 posts

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  # 1848596 18-Aug-2017 15:15
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mrfte:

 

Rikkitic:

 

What would those be? You seem to think you can fix social issues by punishing people. I think the way to fix them is by changing people. You don't change people though punishment. You do it through education and by giving them better options. It is a long-term process that requires patience. You start with the kids.

 

 

Life is not fair. There will always be winners and losers. No one is going to sit and hold your hand explaining why you were in the wrong. Adults know when they're in the wrong and shy from being responsible anyways because it's too much effort and it's easier to take chances - because, most often it's someone else paying the price for it. We can't keep babying people through adult life. Most lessons in responsibility are usually learnt via a swift kick up the rear.

 

 

That's a very negative and defeatist world view.

 

Based no doubt on the assumption that unless there's someone standing with a whip, some significant number of people wake up in the morning thinking about how they're going to do a lousy days work / not look after their kids / try to be as dumb as possible.  I don't believe people are born like that - even if some small percentage of people learn to behave like that.

 

I wonder what happened to:

 

"All Kiwis want is someone to love, somewhere to live, somewhere to work, and something to hope for."

 

 




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  # 1848600 18-Aug-2017 15:18
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Fred99:

 

 

 

"All Kiwis want is someone to love, somewhere to live, somewhere to work, and something to hope for."

 

 

And money can't buy any of that. But hey, raise taxes and try anyway.


 
 
 
 


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  # 1848604 18-Aug-2017 15:25
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Wiggum:

 

Fred99:

 

 

 

"All Kiwis want is someone to love, somewhere to live, somewhere to work, and something to hope for."

 

 

And money can't buy any of that. But hey, raise taxes and try anyway.

 

 

I agree that money can't necessarily buy any of that which you highlighted, but there's a very strong correlation between abject poverty / lack of opportunity and failure to achieve any of those wants.

 

NZ seems to be an aspirational vacuum for many people.  If correcting that means returning to a more egalitarian society, and achieving that requires some wealth sharing, then so be it.


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  # 1848605 18-Aug-2017 15:25
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Wiggum:

 

And money can't buy any of that. But hey, raise taxes and try anyway.

 

 

Good plan. I think I'll vote for that.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 1848606 18-Aug-2017 15:26
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I also undid the "set answer" that someone had clicked for that post.  Not because it was defeatist and I don't agree with it - but that in context of the thread title, it isn't even close to being an answer - let alone the correct answer.  Some people need to grow up a little IMO.  This shouldn't be a p!ssing contest.


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  # 1848609 18-Aug-2017 15:33
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Fred99:

 

mrfte:

 

Rikkitic:

 

What would those be? You seem to think you can fix social issues by punishing people. I think the way to fix them is by changing people. You don't change people though punishment. You do it through education and by giving them better options. It is a long-term process that requires patience. You start with the kids.

 

 

Life is not fair. There will always be winners and losers. No one is going to sit and hold your hand explaining why you were in the wrong. Adults know when they're in the wrong and shy from being responsible anyways because it's too much effort and it's easier to take chances - because, most often it's someone else paying the price for it. We can't keep babying people through adult life. Most lessons in responsibility are usually learnt via a swift kick up the rear.

 

 

That's a very negative and defeatist world view.

 

Based no doubt on the assumption that unless there's someone standing with a whip, some significant number of people wake up in the morning thinking about how they're going to do a lousy days work / not look after their kids / try to be as dumb as possible.  I don't believe people are born like that - even if some small percentage of people learn to behave like that.

 

I wonder what happened to:

 

"All Kiwis want is someone to love, somewhere to live, somewhere to work, and something to hope for."

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lol. That's not being negative. That's seeing things for what they are. If people didn't have bills to pay and hunger to take care of, most people wouldn't be spending their lives doing the mainstream jobs that they have to, to keep this system working. What you see as a failed system, is what we have evolved to and is our best bet yet to provide a reasonable standard of living for the majority of the population.


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  # 1848611 18-Aug-2017 15:39
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mrfte:

 

Fred99:

 

mrfte:

 

Rikkitic:

 

What would those be? You seem to think you can fix social issues by punishing people. I think the way to fix them is by changing people. You don't change people though punishment. You do it through education and by giving them better options. It is a long-term process that requires patience. You start with the kids.

 

 

Life is not fair. There will always be winners and losers. No one is going to sit and hold your hand explaining why you were in the wrong. Adults know when they're in the wrong and shy from being responsible anyways because it's too much effort and it's easier to take chances - because, most often it's someone else paying the price for it. We can't keep babying people through adult life. Most lessons in responsibility are usually learnt via a swift kick up the rear.

 

 

That's a very negative and defeatist world view.

 

Based no doubt on the assumption that unless there's someone standing with a whip, some significant number of people wake up in the morning thinking about how they're going to do a lousy days work / not look after their kids / try to be as dumb as possible.  I don't believe people are born like that - even if some small percentage of people learn to behave like that.

 

I wonder what happened to:

 

"All Kiwis want is someone to love, somewhere to live, somewhere to work, and something to hope for."

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lol. That's not being negative. That's seeing things for what they are. If people didn't have bills to pay and hunger to take care of, most people wouldn't be spending their lives doing the mainstream jobs that they have to, to keep this system working. What you see as a failed system, is what we have evolved to and is our best bet yet to provide a reasonable standard of living for the majority of the population.

 

 

No - that's merely how you choose to see things.

 

As for your comment "what you see as a failed system" - you have no idea at all "what I see" - so stop pretending that you do.


 
 
 
 




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  # 1848614 18-Aug-2017 15:45
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Fred99:

 

 

 

NZ seems to be an aspirational vacuum for many people.  If correcting that means returning to a more egalitarian society, and achieving that requires some wealth sharing, then so be it.

 

 

Thats just your view, and opinion. My view is that its not broken, therefore no reason to try and fix it.

 

You can't create an equal/free society by wealth sharing. Society is based on a person's right to work, earn an income, and keep the fruits of their hard earned work. We all have this right. If I create wealth that belongs to me, no government should have the right to take it away and give it to somebody else. Wealth sharing will just coddle the poor and reinforce the tendency for many people to just continue to be happy to live on welfare.

 

An equal society is a society where we are all given an equal chance to create our own wealth. Its should have nothing to do with how much wealth certain people have.

 

 


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  # 1848618 18-Aug-2017 15:51
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Without the consumer where would you get your wealth???


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  # 1848620 18-Aug-2017 15:52
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I love the way the uninformed believe that people are poor or on welfare by choice.  





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 




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  # 1848624 18-Aug-2017 15:57
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Rikkitic:

 

You don't change people though punishment. You do it through education and by giving them better options. It is a long-term process that requires patience. You start with the kids.

 

 

So if punishment does not work, and the kids (being kids) are not interested in your education, how on earth are you proposing to "change them" ? Maybe thats best left up to the parents.

 

 

 

 


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  # 1848627 18-Aug-2017 16:05
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Wiggum:

 

An equal society is a society where we are all given an equal chance to create our own wealth. Its should have nothing to do with how much wealth certain people have.

 

 

An equal society is one where everyone has equality of opportunity. That is not the case here.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 1848628 18-Aug-2017 16:07
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Wiggum:

 

Rikkitic:

 

You don't change people though punishment. You do it through education and by giving them better options. It is a long-term process that requires patience. You start with the kids.

 

 

So if punishment does not work, and the kids (being kids) are not interested in your education, how on earth are you proposing to "change them" ? Maybe thats best left up to the parents.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And this is where the tail starts chasing the dog. This discussion is now just going around in a circle. Time for me to go do something else.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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  # 1848632 18-Aug-2017 16:12
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MikeB4:

 

I love the way the uniformed believe that people are poor or on welfare by choice.  

 

 

I assume that should have been uninformed :-)

 

I agree - but in my opinion it's even more complex.

 

The meritocratic system we have rewards success - I have no problem with that.

 

Unfortunately, it also results in the belief - something well and truly held by those who haven't achieved success - that they are not valued.

 

Now we have people seriously suggesting that what's needed is to give them a good kick up the backside - and hand out tax cuts to the most successful.

 

 


309 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1848633 18-Aug-2017 16:15
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Now this is getting interesting In my 40+ years in the educations system I have never found a student  who didn't want to learn with the odd exception of those with a disability

 

and even in those cases they want to learn.  The problem is finding the skills that these children have and using them to develop further skills Most if not all children have a skill of some sort that

 

should be used to extend their thoughts and challenge them further.  The most important years are the first and the best new entrants teachers are able to develop them  These are the people who we should

 

 be thanking when giving out compliments later on in the education system. Today finding these skills should be made easier with todays technology (Google for example you can find what you want in minutes)

 

Taking children down the path of something they are interested in is the real key. The thing we need to do now is to adapt the education system to do this (Teacher Training) Labours learner driving policy will need to use specialist instructors I could go on but it may beyond some people's acceptance that we encourage children to become independent and creative thinkers and to think outside the square.


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